-1 Noblesville Officer Noname

[bigus_D]

Stop posting about here...

Please, do tell. What exactly are we allowed to post about on this website (in your excellent opinion)?

 

[Fishersjohn48]

If things were so traumatic for you why didn't you just punch him or something? Good grief!! While your LTCH check might not have been done the ideal way it isn't the end of the flipping world. IMO your snippy and defiant type remarks only makes things worse. That was not the place to be addressing your concerns or making a scene. Wow I hope you are never in a real situation based on how this went down. Show the guy your pink slip and your ID and be done with it.

FWIW- The problem with a Indiana LTCH is the no picture part. Anyone can print out a fake and it is done quite commonly.

It is April Fools day. You suggest showing his ID even though he has no responsibility to do so for what reason? I will assume you are an LEO based on your response. You feel that you can make up rules for your own convenience? If you are serious and IF you are a cop you are the type that cause the problem. You are charged with SERVING the people, not your own interests. Responses like this make me so angry and I am a true supporter of LEO's in general but when they start making stuff up, it drives me nuts.

You're right on one point. It was not the place to make a scene. The fake officer should have asked for the LTCH and ended the conversation with a thank you and left the gentleman alone, not stand there and make a scene.

 

[Markedup]

What is the big deal about refusing to present your ID? Is it a pride thing? Is it just because you know you don't legally have to?


I'm not wanting to argue about it, I'm not even saying I agree or disagree with it. I'm just wanting to understand, that's all.

I don't think refusing to present an ID is the same as not identifying myself.
I think a verbal rehearsal of my bonifides probably is enough. Does the cop
have to assume I am lying about my identity? OP did fine.

Thanks

Papers, please.
Fort Wayne Newspapers are mine.

 

[j706]

J... Are you trolling, forgetting the purple, or just full of FAIL?

We license holders have already jumped through the hoops of obtaining our 2ndlittle amendment rights but I see no where on my license where I have to submit to lectures by LE. The officer's opinion on how this fella is carrying amounts to contempt of cop, nothing more.

OP, you should have told Officer Friendly since he's higher on the food chain why hasn't he complained up the chain to the state police about not putting a picture on the gun license? Which court case was it that found once a state weapon license is presented questioning is supposed to cease (State v Richardson)

ALSO...please site your source where criminals run off copies of weapons carry licenses. Enlighten us all

I have jumped through all the same hoops as anyone else and then some. I have had a LTCH since I was 19 years old (51 Now) I didn't particularly enjoy all the hassle and money but I sucked it up and did it anyway...even when it wasn't required for me.

I do not and have never lectured anyone not related to me on how to carry. I don't agree with someone doing that.

I was at a home on a warrant service where we took an entire stack of LTCH's in plain view, complete with different computer generated numbers on each, all ready to have names and addresses filled in. Ready to be sold to who knows whom. Wide spread problem? I don't know for sure. But if I ever do need to check one I will do it via radio or MDT to be sure. They are to simple to fake.

 

[qwerty]

I have jumped through all the same hoops as anyone else and then some. I have had a LTCH since I was 19 years old (51 Now) I didn't particularly enjoy all the hassle and money but I sucked it up and did it anyway...even when it wasn't required for me.

I do not and have never lectured anyone not related to me on how to carry. I don't agree with someone doing that.

I was at a home on a warrant service where we took an entire stack of LTCH's in plain view, complete with different computer generated numbers on each, all ready to have names and addresses filled in. Ready to be sold to who knows whom. Wide spread problem? I don't know for sure. But if I ever do need to check one I will do it via radio or MDT to be sure. They are to simple to fake.

I often get calls from out of state agencies.... They can not believe that the simple pink piece of paper is an LTCH for Indiana. I have come across many fakes over the years as well.

 

[KG1]

Then you were being detained. I can't find the citation, but I will look for it (unless someone else knows of it offhand). I'm sure I read that if the officer refuses to return your ID, then you are being detained. I would suggest that it is even more true if he did so even after verifying the legitimacy of your license. According to the law, the investigation should end 1immediately. Not "immediately after a lecture".

+1. Seems to me that holding on to your LTCH or ID so you can't leave as a means to keep you there and listen to a lecture classifies as being detained against your will at that point.

 

[KG1]

I have jumped through all the same hoops as anyone else and then some. I have had a LTCH since I was 19 years old (51 Now) I didn't particularly enjoy all the hassle and money but I sucked it up and did it anyway...even when it wasn't required for me.

I do not and have never lectured anyone not related to me on how to carry. I don't agree with someone doing that.

I was at a home on a warrant service where we took an entire stack of LTCH's in plain view, complete with different computer generated numbers on each, all ready to have names and addresses filled in. Ready to be sold to who knows whom. Wide spread problem? I don't know for sure. But if I ever do need to check one I will do it via radio or MDT to be sure. They are to simple to fake.

Would you agree though that providing a picture ID is not required by law to verify an LTCH?

 

[Double T]

You are not required to provide photo identification, only ID yourself. The burden of proof is on the LEO in the event that you did commit a crime, thus you don't have to say anything other than name, DOB, and address. If questioning involves the carry of a handgun, then you simply hand over the LTCH as your prints are on file, and the requirement to get a LTCH is more stringent than that of a driver's license.

A LEO asking for ID wants your name, DOB, and address. If you are driving, they may request to see your DL unless you have the number memorized.

Cooperating and surrendering your rights are not the same thing, and I would like to make them earn their keep if they really are trying to detain me because if I mess up on my end at my job, I very well could pay very hefty fines and go to both criminal and civil court. Waste my time, waste your own.

 

[MikeDVB]

Would you agree though that providing a picture ID is not required by law to verify an LTCH?

As near as I understand it - unless you've committed a crime or they have reasonable suspicion that you were about to commit a crime - you do not have to ID yourself that I'm aware of... If there were - officers could go walking down the street just asking everybody for IDs to see who does or does not have warrants (or any other reason).

They suspected you of carrying illegally at which point, you provided your LTCH showing you were licensed and, as such, not committing a crime. At that point - unless there is some other non-firearms type of crime they also think you're committing there is nothing that requires you to ID yourself.

A carry license with a photo on it sounds ideal on the surface until you think about them not even being able to keep up with issuing the simple pieces of pink paper followed by the fact that you most certainly would need to do some sort of renewal (i.e. bye bye lifetime) because your photo of you at 21 isn't going to be helpful when you're 50 for the purposes of identification unless you're the luckiest person around.

At the end of the day if you're going to OC, you can expect at some point in your life to be hassled by an officer and it's best if you know your rights, how to assert your rights, and how to handle the overall situation.

I'd say the OP did fair enough, it could have been better but it also could have been much worse.

OC'd every day for over a year now and nary a LEO interaction for me - I hope when the day does come [as it certainly will] that I handle it at least as good as the OP.

 

[Scutter01]

Amen to this.

I've never had a negative experience with an NPD officer, but I've only dealt with the uniformed patrolmen during a traffic stop or when when we've called them out about an issue. They've always been perfect gentlemen, at the very least.

Every interaction I've had with NPD has also been very professional. The only issue I've ever had with them was being pulled over by an NPD officer trolling for a DUI on a Friday night and then inventing an infraction (and then letting me off with a warning) to justify the stop when he discovered I hadn't been drinking. But even then he was very professional, and while it irritated me that he was trolling, I couldn't really blame him for it.

 

[qwerty]

You are not required to provide photo identification, only ID yourself. The burden of proof is on the LEO in the event that you did commit a crime, thus you don't have to say anything other than name, DOB, and address. If questioning involves the carry of a handgun, then you simply hand over the LTCH as your prints are on file, and the requirement to get a LTCH is more stringent than that of a driver's license.

Up until the part of the law that says "The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter."

 

[92ThoStro]

I did not post to vent. I like it when other people have posted their encounters, because we can learn from them. I posted mine so that people can know what happened, and correct me on my errors, or tell me what else could or should have went down. Thanks for the responses.

As far as the picture ID. I did not give it to him, because he was not in uniform, he came up behind me asking if I was a cop, like that matters, and we were in a restaurant, and I was just there to get what I ordered, not to be hassled by some guy. I do not have to show it, and showing it doesn't even make it real. If he thinks my LTCH is fake, why is my DL real? If anyone can print a fake LTCH, why can't I have a real DL, but a fake LTCH? Does one being real make the other real?

Matching LTCH and DL is not how I want a cop to check it, he needs to get on the radio to do it properly. If he is going to waste my time, he at least needs to do it correctly. That way he can know for sure the LTCH is real. A verbal name and D.O.B to help is more than enough.

And stopping me because I dress, act, look, or carry like a cop is not a reason to detain me.

And yes, I would have preferred to have him saying no to the supervisor on video, instead of starting to record after. I am sure he will say I never asked for one.
I think his, I don't have one here with me, response was pretty clever, is that really even a denial to my request?

 

[jbombelli]

Up until the part of the law that says "The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter."

Presenting the LTCH does just that.

 

[qwerty]

Presenting the LTCH does just that.

Even if it is not yours?

 

[1911ly]

Required or not, what's the big deal about showing your ID to a LEO? Put the guy at ease and show it. Then educate the fellow on your rights. Now the guy probably things less of LTCH holders beacuse of it. I would not make a seen. Not worth making a bunch of people around me nervous beacuse I want to be righteous! Just show it.

 

[ModernGunner]

One simple solution would just be to have a LTCH similar to a driver's license, with a photo and/or thumbprint of the holder.

A better way would just be to have the LTCH as an 'endorsement' on the driver's license. Less paperwork to carry, anyway.

The error by the OP was not asking the LEO for his Police ID. Sorry, you MAY be a cop, but you're NOT a cop until you verify that you are.

Citizens have the right to know with whom they're dealing, just as LEO's do. The cop should've properly identified himself at the onset.

As an LEO, if I'm unsure of your identity, or believe that the LTCH is fake, I have the authority to make sure you're the person identified on the LTCH, since there ARE fake LTCH permits out there.

As a citizen, I can be cooperative or uncooperative, MY choice.

As a LEO, I can be cooperative or uncooperative, MY choice.

That said, being uncooperative certainly CAN reasonably lead any LEO to conclude there's "something more to the story", and therefore further investigate.

Just depends on how 'you' (civilian OR LEO) want your day to go.

I prefer fun days! Of course, I don't get stopped / detained for carrying. Not once in, approximately, 4 decades. Guess I look like a cop, LOL.

I don't know any LEO's that OC off duty, but surely there are some out there. I've just never seen or met them.

 

[KW730]

Even if it is not yours?

Case law supports that nothing more is required than presenting the LTCH. I believe it was Richardson v. State but if not someone will be along shortly to correct me.

 

[MikeDVB]

Up until the part of the law that says "The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter."

Handing over the pink slip shows that you are licensed, they can call and verify it's valid and active if they want. Once that is said and done - you've proven you're exempt and good to go.

The issue the officer has is that he has no way of knowing that license is actually yours. I.e. if I were to hand you a copy of my LTCH it would come back as valid - but it certainly wouldn't be you.

That isn't a burden on the licensed individual - that's an issue for the officer as the licensed individual is not required to provide secondary identification beyond the LTCH unless another crime (unrelated to the simple carrying of a firearm) is suspected.

 

[Bunnykid68]

One simple solution would just be to have a LTCH similar to a driver's license, with a photo and/or thumbprint of the holder.

A better way would just be to have the LTCH as an 'endorsement' on the driver's license. Less paperwork to carry, anyway.

The error by the OP was not asking the LEO for his Police ID. Sorry, you MAY be a cop, but you're NOT a cop until you verify that you are.

Citizens have the right to know with whom they're dealing, just as LEO's do. The cop should've properly identified himself at the onset.

As an LEO, if I'm unsure of your identity, or believe that the LTCH is fake, I have the authority to make sure you're the person identified on the LTCH, since there ARE fake LTCH permits out there.

As a citizen, I can be cooperative or uncooperative, MY choice.

As a LEO, I can be cooperative or uncooperative, MY choice.

That said, being uncooperative certainly CAN reasonably lead any LEO to conclude there's "something more to the story", and therefore further investigate.

Just depends on how 'you' (civilian OR LEO) want your day to go.

I prefer fun days! Of course, I don't get stopped / detained for carrying. Not once in, approximately, 4 decades. Guess I look like a cop, LOL.

I don't know any LEO's that OC off duty, but surely there are some out there. I've just never seen or met them.

The best way would just be to not need the damn license., then there would be no reason for the officer to be talking to you

 

[qwerty]

Case law supports that nothing more is required than presenting the LTCH. I believe it was Richardson v. State but if not someone will be along shortly to correct me.

There was identification by prior police contact by that same officer in Richardson v. State, so it was someone who's identification was known to the officer at the time the LTCH was requested.

It all makes for an interesting discussion.