Could an LTCH holder have done anything to lessen the damage caused in Colorado?

[wagyu52]

No doubt he was in a pure offensive mode, no reason to take cover, just random spray of bullets, this was clearly his plan. If you throw in some return fire now he has to change his plan, either seeking cover, redirect his fire, try to pinpoint fire. This would have changed his plan, likely giveing people time to escape. I see return fire, effective or ineffective as a plus

 

[nitrox73]

Folks are reliant on being protected and have ne real idea what to do in any violent confrontation.

Not sure what group exactly but if I recall correctly it was the Indiana State Police Alliance or something along those lines called my father several years ago asking to donate money. My father declined and the man on the phone asked 'if something bad happens don't you want a well trained police force?" My father's responce, 'No sir, if something bad happens I'd prefer they stay out of my way.'

People don't expect to have to take care of themselves, that's a basic problem anymore, no self-reliance.

 

[Vladislas]

There was nothing that could have been done with all that he was wearing and the conditions of the theater .

 

[g+16]

There were perhaps 300 viewers in that theater, so either no one carrying, or no one carrying and prepared to use (so why carry?).

Lawsuit crazy world, policemen who do not know gun laws, me and my buddies I use to work with always had a said " I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, I would like to think I would take my chances and at least try to stop the shooter

 

[g+16]

Not sure what group exactly but if I recall correctly it was the Indiana State Police Alliance or something along those lines called my father several years ago asking to donate money. My father declined and the man on the phone asked 'if something bad happens don't you want a well trained police force?" My father's responce, 'No sir, if something bad happens I'd prefer they stay out of my way.'

People don't expect to have to take care of themselves, that's a basic problem anymore, no self-reliance.

+1 sounds like my old man

 

[Cheeseburger]

Firearms Regulations in the 20 Largest Colorado Municipalities

According to this conceal carry is banned in Aurora CO. Gun ban once again creates a free fire zone.

 

[miguel]

"Could an LTCH holder have done anything to lessen the damage caused in Colorado?"

Yes, but it all depends the LTCH holder...where they were seated, their level of competence, their level of confidence, and other more general circumstances. I'm assuming even a combat vet with a 10mm stuffed in his shorts is going to react differently in this scenario if he was with his ten-year old son rather than a buddy he served with in Iraq.

One thing I fear gets lost in a thread like this is: why do you carry?

Personally, and maybe I'm selfish, I didn't get a LTCH to save everyone in the theatre/mall/parking lot. I don't look at having an LTCH as a responsibility to the community or an "opportunity" to be a first-responder or a hero. I have it so that if some joker, no pun intended, is in a position to put me or my family/companions in his sights in a public place, I can hopefully preempt him from following through.

Above all, Job 1 in a scenario like this is to survive. An LTCH is a tool that I may need to do that. If a benefit of my taking action is that the assailant doesn't get anyone or anyone else, it's icing on the cake, but not a motivating factor.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Ballistic helmets will not stop a direct hit. FSTF!

It's still IIIA Kevlar. Won't stop a rifle, but it'll stop a handgun.

 

[SnoopLoggyDog]

"Could an LTCH holder have done anything to lessen the damage caused in Colorado?"

Yes, but it all depends the LTCH holder...where they were seated, their level of competence, their level of confidence, and other more general circumstances. I'm assuming even a combat vet with a 10mm stuffed in his shorts is going to react differently in this scenario if he was with his ten-year old son rather than a buddy he served with in Iraq.

One thing I fear gets lost in a thread like this is: why do you carry?

Personally, and maybe I'm selfish, I didn't get a LTCH to save everyone in the theatre/mall/parking lot. I don't look at having an LTCH as a responsibility to the community or an "opportunity" to be a first-responder or a hero. I have it so that if some joker, no pun intended, is in a position to put me or my family/companions in his sights in a public place, I can hopefully preempt him from following through.

Above all, Job 1 in a scenario like this is to survive. An LTCH is a tool that I may need to do that. If a benefit of my taking action is that the assailant doesn't get anyone or anyone else, it's icing on the cake, but not a motivating factor.

One other factor is that the "Joker" was wearing a CBRN mask. That and the helmet would limit his vision and hearing. Reflections within the mask, from the glare of the movie projection would be disorienting. Add to that, all the screaming and movement in the theater would have added to his disorientation. In the fog of this massacre, there may have been an opportunity to stop him.

Like several posters have stated, many, many variables to this scenario.

 

[andrewjshimmmen]

ok not sure why you are even asking this question!
the answer is far too obvious of course they could and would have!
Florida man who shot suspects during Internet cafe robbery will not face charges | Fox News

chances are if he had seen some open carry he would have just gone home!

 

[cobber]

Ballistic helmets will not stop a direct hit. FSTF!

Might still bring a tear to your eye to take one or two on the noggin, even with a helmet.

 

[churchmouse]

"Could an LTCH holder have done anything to lessen the damage caused in Colorado?"

Yes, but it all depends the LTCH holder...where they were seated, their level of competence, their level of confidence, and other more general circumstances. I'm assuming even a combat vet with a 10mm stuffed in his shorts is going to react differently in this scenario if he was with his ten-year old son rather than a buddy he served with in Iraq.

One thing I fear gets lost in a thread like this is: why do you carry?

Personally, and maybe I'm selfish, I didn't get a LTCH to save everyone in the theatre/mall/parking lot. I don't look at having an LTCH as a responsibility to the community or an "opportunity" to be a first-responder or a hero. I have it so that if some joker, no pun intended, is in a position to put me or my family/companions in his sights in a public place, I can hopefully preempt him from following through.

Above all, Job 1 in a scenario like this is to survive. An LTCH is a tool that I may need to do that. If a benefit of my taking action is that the assailant doesn't get anyone or anyone else, it's icing on the cake, but not a motivating factor.

Good points. Family defense first last and always. I still feel a certain responsibility to act, react or try to do something if this were to happen around me. Just wired that way. Plus the fact I do not play well with idiots.
My family having been trained and continue to train would have sought cover and looked for some advantage to be taken to get this guy down or put him down. In a confusing situation as described that would have been possible.
The CC ban in the area makes LTCH a moot point. A blind side tackle would have been the only real option.

 

[melensdad]

YES a PROPERLY ARMED civilian COULD have made a big difference in the outcome.

PROPERLY ARMED ~ I typically carry a 1911. Sometimes I carry a 380 pocket gun. Perp coming down an aisle, perhaps 25+ feet away from me, moving target, high stress, smoke, if I am armed with a 380 Auto or Hammerless 38 Special pocket revolver then I'm going to miss. Simple fact. On the other hand, with a proper handgun like a 1911 then I think I have a very good chance of a legitimate hit on his body.

BODY ARMOUR ~ Assuming I am properly armed and assuming I hit the perp in the center of mass, and assuming he is wearing body armour, then I believe that I will have knocked him senseless with my shot. FBI studies of mass shooters indicates that they are generally cowards. This shooter gave up at the first sight of officers. So its likely that a shot to the body armour would have caused him to stop and exit. Or stop and fall down. Or stop and gasp for breath. In many scenarios he would have STOPPED. Even if only for 30 seconds, but likely for longer. How many people would have been saved? Can't tell, but I suspect a bunch.

I'M HERE TO SAVE MYSELF ~ I'm not a cop. I'm not here to save you. But in a situation like this where the guy is shooting at everyone then I am a target. When I am a target then its possible that YOU may be saved by my actions. I'm not going to engage until I feel a threat. But if my engagement helps you then understand that was not my intent. My intent was to save me and my family.

Honestly this even has caused me to re-evaluate my carry weapons. Its now more likely that in a movie theatre I will have a 1911 or CZ75 than a pocket gun.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I'm thinking that 1 guy / gal could have made a difference .

Never mind the armchair " I'd have shot him through his left eye from across the room " BS but realistically , if he ("joker") started to take incoming fire I believe he'd at least been slowed way down if not stopped all together .

 

[Fieldpiece]

Not all body armor is equal ballistic plates would have rendered handguns ineffective. Without plate even a handgun would have caused serious trauma. I don't know much about the riot helmet most won't stop rifle rounds. The face plate would have been the target I would have chosen. If nothing else the impact should have severely stunned him possibly even breaking his neck. I'm sure it would have been risky in the extreme to stop him with no collateral damage.

 

[jbombelli]

YES a PROPERLY ARMED civilian COULD have made a big difference in the outcome.

PROPERLY ARMED ~ I typically carry a 1911. Sometimes I carry a 380 pocket gun. Perp coming down an aisle, perhaps 25+ feet away from me, moving target, high stress, smoke, if I am armed with a 380 Auto or Hammerless 38 Special pocket revolver then I'm going to miss. Simple fact. On the other hand, with a proper handgun like a 1911 then I think I have a very good chance of a legitimate hit on his body.

BODY ARMOUR ~ Assuming I am properly armed and assuming I hit the perp in the center of mass, and assuming he is wearing body armour, then I believe that I will have knocked him senseless with my shot. FBI studies of mass shooters indicates that they are generally cowards. This shooter gave up at the first sight of officers. So its likely that a shot to the body armour would have caused him to stop and exit. Or stop and fall down. Or stop and gasp for breath. In many scenarios he would have STOPPED. Even if only for 30 seconds, but likely for longer. How many people would have been saved? Can't tell, but I suspect a bunch.

I'M HERE TO SAVE MYSELF ~ I'm not a cop. I'm not here to save you. But in a situation like this where the guy is shooting at everyone then I am a target. When I am a target then its possible that YOU may be saved by my actions. I'm not going to engage until I feel a threat. But if my engagement helps you then understand that was not my intent. My intent was to save me and my family.

Honestly this even has caused me to re-evaluate my carry weapons. Its now more likely that in a movie theatre I will have a 1911 or CZ75 than a pocket gun.

I read somewhere that he took some vicodins beforehand. I wonder if that might lessen his susceptibility to being knocked senseless.

 

[melensdad]

I read somewhere that he took some vicodins beforehand. I wonder if that might lessen his susceptibility to being knocked senseless.

I saw the same report. Clearly taking several vicodin could have some effect on his ability to tolerate pain. However, when he exited and saw the police he simply gave up. That is likely what I would expect him to do had he been engaged inside the theatre too.

But as for the vicodin, a drug with which I am intimately familiar as I've got rheumatoid arthritis and its always on my bathroom vanity, it may dull the pain but it doesn't eliminate it. Further, a shot to the body armor is going to cause trauma of some sort. Perhaps knock the wind out of him? Perhaps throw him off balance and make him fall. Vicodin would not prevent the wind from being knocked out of him. Vicodin would like make him somewhat unstable on his feet and more likely to fall.

As I said in my post, I think a shot or two from a major caliber handgun would have saved some people. Possibly causing him to retreat completely?

 

[eddie1962]

This shooting kinda hit home for our family. We lived about 4 blocks away from this mall back in the late 90's. I took my then 10 year old boy there on halloween because the mall at the time provided a safe environment and all the merchants handed out candy to the kids. I would also walk there in the evenings to go work out at the gym a few nights a week. I was also there when Columbine hit. I remember a a handful of parents running out of our office when the news hit - their kids were students there. For us, sad and tragic are understatements.

We're already seeing the anti-gun crowd screaming to the high heavens. You can't reason with them that for every Kliebold, Harris, or Holmes out there, there are hundreds of thousands of law abiding gun owners who conduct themselves lawfully and in a non homicidal manner. Be that as it may, it still ticks me off that they some how equate me and other responsible gun owners to homicidal maniacs.

As far as what difference a LTCH holder could have made, maybe not much for a slew of reasons already pointed out in this post. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel that if I were in that theater, I'd want a fighting chance. I'm not talking about some macho, die-hard, diving while shooting my never empty gun at a glossy 20 million dollar bad guy, I'm talking about the chance to defend myself in a hopeless situation. No matter how you spin it, it's gonna be ugly, bloody, and it will not end well - it never does.

So I guess what I'm saying is, would I have made a difference? Probably not. But if me or a loved one, or anyone for that matter are going to be murdered by some random lunatic, I want the chance to either make a difference, or go down fighting. In a case like what just happened in Aurora, either way, the ending will be tragic.

My thoughts and prayers are with you Colorado.........

 

[churchmouse]

YES a PROPERLY ARMED civilian COULD have made a big difference in the outcome.

PROPERLY ARMED ~ I typically carry a 1911. Sometimes I carry a 380 pocket gun. Perp coming down an aisle, perhaps 25+ feet away from me, moving target, high stress, smoke, if I am armed with a 380 Auto or Hammerless 38 Special pocket revolver then I'm going to miss. Simple fact. On the other hand, with a proper handgun like a 1911 then I think I have a very good chance of a legitimate hit on his body.

BODY ARMOUR ~ Assuming I am properly armed and assuming I hit the perp in the center of mass, and assuming he is wearing body armour, then I believe that I will have knocked him senseless with my shot. FBI studies of mass shooters indicates that they are generally cowards. This shooter gave up at the first sight of officers. So its likely that a shot to the body armour would have caused him to stop and exit. Or stop and fall down. Or stop and gasp for breath. In many scenarios he would have STOPPED. Even if only for 30 seconds, but likely for longer. How many people would have been saved? Can't tell, but I suspect a bunch.

I'M HERE TO SAVE MYSELF ~ I'm not a cop. I'm not here to save you. But in a situation like this where the guy is shooting at everyone then I am a target. When I am a target then its possible that YOU may be saved by my actions. I'm not going to engage until I feel a threat. But if my engagement helps you then understand that was not my intent. My intent was to save me and my family.

Honestly this even has caused me to re-evaluate my carry weapons. Its now more likely that in a movie theatre I will have a 1911 or CZ75 than a pocket gun.

25+ feet is not that hard of a shot in no or low stress conditions. A .380 would be a bee sting through the armor. A .38 has a butt load more steam on it.


This is why we practice at 25 yds. with .45 ACP's. We do it every session at the range. We belong to MCFG. and we use the rifle range to practice. Sometimes the rifle shooters are a bit miffed from flying spent casings but we try to work around this as it is the rifle area. Once they realize what we are doing they pay attention. We (Family) regularly make 50 yard shots off hand. Once you get these skills a 25+ ft. shot (except the high stresses involved in this situation) is a piece of cake. Shoot some adrenaline into the mix and a head shot would be no issue. This is all in consideration of CS/OC, panic and mayhem.

I put my small caliber carry pieces up long ago. .44 Special Bull dog or a 1911....period.

I do agree as to your statement. We are all going to see that family is first.

If someone did drop this fool would there be a "Trevon Martin" backlash from some lib gun control group???

Would you stick around if you did get the drop on him?????

What consequences would you be facing?????

 

[wagyu52]

25+ feet is not that hard of a shot in no or low stress conditions. A .380 would be a bee sting through the armor. A .38 has a butt load more steam on it.


This is why we practice at 25 yds. with .45 ACP's. We do it every session at the range. We belong to MCFG. and we use the rifle range to practice. Sometimes the rifle shooters are a bit miffed from flying spent casings but we try to work around this as it is the rifle area. Once they realize what we are doing they pay attention. We (Family) regularly make 50 yard shots off hand. Once you get these skills a 25+ ft. shot (except the high stresses involved in this situation) is a piece of cake. Shoot some adrenaline into the mix and a head shot would be no issue. This is all in consideration of CS/OC, panic and mayhem.

I put my small caliber carry pieces up long ago. .44 Special Bull dog or a 1911....period.

I do agree as to your statement. We are all going to see that family is first.

If someone did drop this fool would there be a "Trevon Martin" backlash from some lib gun control group???

Would you stick around if you did get the drop on him?????

What consequences would you be facing?????

This makes a lot of sense.
I am rethinking carrying a.380, even though I really like the pocket carry in the summer. 38/357 would be a better choice in the same size package. I also really like .45 and am really anxious to get my hands on a new XDS, it looks small enough for pocket carry.