The 2014 Great Snubbie Shoot-Off

[actaeon277]

2014 Great Snubbie Shoot-Off

5 Feb 2014, four INGOers got together at Blythe’s Sport Shop in Valparaiso for one purpose. Too compare various .38/.357 snubbies. Okay, maybe more than one purpose, to have fun shooting.
We brought more guns than we could shoot. Heck, we brought more guns than we could comfortably shoot. Hours of shooting snubbies stops being fun after a while.

The INGOers.
snapdragon
gunbunnies
ghost of winter
actaeon

The guns.
Charter Arms Undercover
Ruger LCR
Ruger Security Six
Ruger SP101
Smith & Wesson Model 10
Smith & Wesson Model 60
Smith & Wesson Model 327 Performance Center
Smith & Wesson Model 642
Smith & Wesson Model 686
Taurus 605

Note 1: This is not an all-inclusive list. The data is not complete. Not everyone shot all the same pistols. We tried to get multiple people on each pistol, for a difference of opinions.

Note 2: Forgot to bring equipment to measure trigger pull length and weight.

Note 3: A person next to us let us try his Ruger Security Six, and Blythe’s Sport Shop let us try out a Smith & Wesson model 327 Performance Center.

Note4: Ammunition used was: .38: 158 gr., and .357: 110 gr.

Note5: We’re not professionals.

Section 1 will be the write ups.
Section 2 will be the pictures.
Section 3 will be data chart.
Section 4 will be accuracy data.

 

[actaeon277]

Section 1. The write ups.

Charter Arms Undercover, .38 only, 5 shot, 2 inch barrel. SA/DA

Gunbunnies:
The model tested was produced back in the 1960’s and is quite used in condition. Overall the trigger was pretty good, lockup seems good and fit and function is good too for a Charter Arms. This gun only shoots 38 spcl’s, no magnums and no +p loads either. It’s light to carry and even with 38 spcl’s it’s a bit hard on your hands on recoil. The sights on this model are hard to pickup on too, the front sight being very thin I don’t think adding bright colored paint would do it any good. Recoil is a bit higher than the grips which made the gun wiggle under recoil.

Ghost of Winter:
Trigger is not anything to write home about. 1960s era cheap trigger.
Short skinny grip. Difficult to get a purchase on.
Difficult sights. Similar to LCR and J Frame (rear sight in the body of the gun)
Fair accuracy.
Okay as a carry gun, but there are better options available.
Recoil the same as others of its size. Not as bad as a lightweight, but not great either.

actaeon:
Skinny grip. Hard to get a hold on.
Long hammer pull in SA. Seemed longer than others.
Trigger seemed too close to the palm (at the end of pull).
I had BAD tears in the paper. Made it hard to count my shots. I used a new target with each pistol. And this was the only one with big gaping tears in it.
As with most snubbies, the extraction was weak. Short extractor, and probably being dirty, made the brass extraction a problem. This occurred on most, this just seemed worse.


Ruger LCR, .38/.357, 5 shot, 1.9 inch barrel. DAO

Snapdragon:
Stiff trigger.
Low .38 recoil with hogue grip. .357 high recoil causing accuracy to suffer.

Ghost of Winter:
Didn’t like the sights, mostly the rear sights. The rear sights are in the gun body.
Trigger was a smooth DAO, but a little heavy. It seemed better than the S&W 642, not as long a pull.
Pinky falls off the grip.

Gunbunnies:
Tame to shoot with .38 or .38+P.
Sights are lacking, but not abnormally so for this class gun.
.357s are too much on recoil.
Trigger is good for this class gun.
Pinky won’t fit.
Overall, it is a good pocket gun because of its size and weight, but not because of how it handles.
I had fired both Snapdragons LCR and my own. Snapdragons had a shorter boot grip on it for better conceal ability, mine had the stock rubber grips from Ruger. I could tell there was more flip in the hand when firing the shorter gripped version versus the stock grips. The stock gripped LCR handled like most other Ruger magnums with the recoil pushing straight back into the hand. This I have found to because the Rugers put the hand higher on the gun’s axis and allow the recoil to be inline with the hand and wrist. Recoil is manageable in a 38 spcl load but the magnums in such a light weight gun were very hard to handle and lent themselves to flinching as you pulled the trigger. The LCR had a wonderful smooth and crisp trigger though for a revolver. Cylinder lock up and release were good, although I noticed on the LCR the release of the cylinder was a bit clumsy with some fitting needed to smooth the reload process. Sights are that of a snubbie and a bit hard to pick up on but the Ruger has a thicker front sight which to me was easier to pick up on. The short barrel length doesn’t lend itself to accuracy though.
Just a note on the LCR and it’s “plastic” construction. I am very happy that the construction materials seem to be holding up well under a steady diet of 38 spcl loads through my LCR. Also with the severe low temperatures we have seen in recent days, my LCR has been riding along as a truck gun and it has worked just fine being submitted to 20 to 30 below temperatures.

actaeon:
More accurate than I expected.
Kicks a bit, even in .38. In .357, OOOWWWWWWW! It didn’t help, I shot this near the end of the shoot.
1st shot was a 10. After that accuracy suffered, anticipating recoil.


Ruger Security Six, .38/.357, 6 shot, 2.7 inch barrel. SA/DA

actaeon:
Heavy trigger in Double Action. The weight made for better recoil.
Solid gun.


Ruger SP101, .38/.357, 5 shot, 2.3 inch barrel. DAO

Gunbunnies:
Ruger SP101 2 inch with hammer 357 magnum
This SP101 I have had around for quite a long time and it has been in all kinds of weather conditions and always worked very well. This particular firearm has had a trigger job done by replacing the springs in it and the action has been smoothed up a bit to make it more pleasurable to shoot and lend to a better accuracy because of the trigger being tamer than a out of the box Ruger of the same model. This gun also has the front sight colored bright orange which helps to find it when your trying to aim it. This gun has the same high center of bore position for the grip and your hands position so it is easy to control also. The weight is much heavier in the SP101 and lends to it’s shoot ability with both 38 spcl’s and 357 magnums. It is still painful to shoot magnums but it is manageable. Fit and function are very good, tight lock up, and very accurate for a snubbie.
Ruger SP101 3 inch 357 magnum
This SP101 was all stock out of the box. Trigger was in need of a trigger job, and front sight needed some color for easier pickup. Overall fit and function was good and 38 spcl’s and 357 magnums are manageable based on the high positioning of the hand behind the bore and added weight of the all steel firearm and added length of the barrel over the 2 inch model. Sight base was better although with the dark front sight it was a bit hard to pickup on. I did feel that the longer barrel did make the sight base better for accuracy and if I choreographed her it would probably produce a bit more velocity.
Ruger SP101 2 inch bobbed hammer 357 magnum
This gun performed the same as the other 2 inch SP101 I tested in this session but with the bobbed hammer there isn’t any single action notch on the hammer so it does seem a bit smoother throughout the pull. Taking in consideration the gun as tested had a stock trigger which on the Ruger normally requires a trigger job to make more manageable. Otherwise everything else was the same as reported on the other SP101’s. Sights on this one had been painted bright orange which made them easier to pick up on.

actaeon:
Not bad on recoil, even in .357.
Trigger, eh – middle of the road.


Smith & Wesson Model 10, .38, 6 shot, 2 inch barrel. SA/DA (nickname Dick Tracy)

Snapdragon:
Smooth trigger.
Seemed to shoot high.

Gunbunnies:
This little K-frame is a pleasure to shoot. The added weight of a 6 shot cylinder and the larger frame than the SP101’s lends itself to better accuracy. The Smith also has better lock work overall than most other firearms manufacturers and it can be felt when functioning the cylinder lockup. The tested firearm had good lockup, fit and function. The sights on this model were not adjustable and the front sight is a bit thin for my liking. There are K-Frames on the market that will chamber 357 magnums; this gun was only in 38 spcl. and handled them very well…


Smith & Wesson Model 60, .38/.357, 5 shot, 3 inch barrel

Snapdragon:
Hair trigger with Single Action.
I shot better Double Action
High recoil with .357. The rubber grip was only on the side, so the metal on the back of the grip recoiled into the hand.

Gunbunnies:
I liked the styling and handling of this little J frame. She had a good trigger and lockup. Sights were good and carry weight was fine for carry, but under fire this one bit a little. Recoil was a bit harsh… Overall I liked the longer sight base and magnum ability

actaeon:
.38 was more than I expected. This is the first snubbie I ever shot. The Single Action was smooth, great accuracy.
The Double Action was not too bad. I started shooting a little more to the left.
With the .357 accuracy opened a bit. Probably me anticipating the recoil, which was OOWWWW!
I need to buy a better grip. I bought a rubber grip, but it’s only on the side, not on the back of the grip.
The 3 inch barrel almost takes it out of a snubbie category, but it’s my gun, and I wanted to shoot it.
The 3 inch gives it a better length extractor, a LOT better than the shorter extractors.
It being my first snubbie, I wasn’t prepared for the amount of flame.
I liked the night sight on the front blade.
(new comment added 11 apr)
New problem. During the winter, I've been using an ankle holster. The 3 inch barrel just barely stuck out the bottom. No problem at first, because I was wearing hiking boots, the barrel just went against the boot.
But, first day wearing sneakers. OWW!
The edge of the muzzle smacked into my ankle.
I need to add some cushion to the ankle holster.
This wouldn't be a problem with a 2 inch barrel.


Smith and Wesson Model 327 Performance Center, .38/.357, 8 shot, 2 inch barrel. SA/DA

Ghost of Winter:
Great trigger in Single and Double Action.
Good sights, but short sight radius but easy to acquire.
Crisp Single Action trigger. Double Action smooth. Overall great trigger.
A fair amount of recoil. Big cylinder, but lightweight gun.
Accuracy was ok, short barrel.
8 shot cylinder makes it too wide for most BUG applications.
8 shot moon clip difficult to line up all the bullets up.

actaeon:
Heavy kick due to light weight material.
Had extraction problems, short extractor.
The .357 kicked hard for its size.
Had a failure to fire. One bullet failed to fire, twice. But the bullet fired in another gun.
Only fired .357, it was the last gun I fired.


Smith & Wesson model 642, .38, 5 shot, 1.9 inch barrel. DAO

Ghost of Winter:
I can only fit 2 fingers on the grip. I shot .38+P only.
I didn’t like the sights, as with most compact snubbies.
Kicked pretty good, it’s a lightweight gun.
Long heavy trigger, Double Action Only. It has a longer pull than the LCR.
Good pocket gun though, lightweight.


Smith & Wesson model 686, .38/.357, 6 inch barrel. 2.5 inch barrel, SA/DA

Ghost of Winter:
Heavy. The heaviest we shot today. Not a pocket or ankle gun.
Recoil is a lot more manageable with this weight gun.
Single Action is very crisp and light.
Double Action smooth. And I could feel a point just before break where I could pause. Fairly heavy trigger pull.
Sights are easier to pick up. The rear sight is adjustable.
Big grips, easier for me to hold on to.
I had some trouble with the HKS speed loader due to interference with the grip.
A good EDC.

gunbunnies:
The L frame brought the weight level up and made both the 38 spcl and 357 magnum loads handle even better. The trigger pull, lock up, and fit and function were all the same quality that one would expect from Smith & Wesson and this well tested model. This gun would make a nice carry piece with the stainless steel construction and 6 shot cylinder. Sights are nice also with a thicker front sight blade to enhance picking up on it when needed. This frame was built to handle a steady diet of magnum’s and even though it is bigger than the rest of the tested snubbies would be a long lasting hard use firearm in my opinion.


actaeon:
Not an ankle gun, big and heavy. But, very comfortable to shoot.
Pretty good on accuracy. The gun weight helps.
I liked the trigger, a lot. I could pull, and pause before the break, then fire.
Sights were good.


Taurus 605, .38/.357, 5 shot, 2 inch barrel. SA/DA

Ghost of Winter:
Like most of the smaller snubbies, difficult sights.
Single Action, fair trigger, but a bit gritty. A little heavy trigger for SA.
Double Action, horrendous. Not smooth transition. Rough spots, uneven.
Trigger was bad enough, I wouldn’t feel comfortable relying on it as a carry gun.
Gun is a bit heavier, might be a problem on the ankle.
Recoil wasn’t bad.
I didn’t shoot any .357s through it.

actaeon:
Recoil seemed higher than expected for the weight.
Had extractor problems, usual for the small barrel.
Middle of the road accuracy.
Bad kick for a .357.

 

[actaeon277]

Section 2 Pictures

.

Here are some of the guns we brought.

Here is the key holing on the Charter Arms.

The Smith & Wesson Model 327 Performance Center

Ruger LCR

Smith & Wesson Model 10

And finally, my Smith and Wesson Model 60

 

[actaeon277]

Section 3 Data Chart.

Weight (oz)	Make	Model	Caliber	# of shots	Barrel Length inches	Cylinder Width inches	Overall Length inches	Height inches
14.9	S&W	Model 642	.38	5	1.9		6.3
17.2	Ruger	LCR	.38/.357	5	1.9	1.3	6.5	4.5
19.4	Charter Arms	Undercover	.38	5	2
22.0	S&W	Model 60	.38/.357	5	3		7.8
22.7	S&W	Model 327	.38/.357	8	2		7
24.0	Taurus	605	.38/.357	5	2	1.4	6.5	4.8
25.1	Ruger	SP101	.38/.357	5	2.3		7.2
27.0	S&W	Model 10	.38	6	2
33.3	S&W	Model 686	.38/.357	6	2.5		7.5
	Ruger	Security 6	.38/.357	6	2.7		8

 

[actaeon277]

Section 4. Accuracy data. All data came from actaeon.
1st number is the ring, 2nd number is amount of hits.
1 full cylinder each comparison.
Target was small silhouette at 21 feet.
Some distortion in accuracy might be from firing .357 in a snubbie for hours.

Charter Arms Undercover
Single Action 8-3, 7-2. All left of center.
Double Action 9-2, 8-2, arm-1

Ruger LCR
.38 Double Action 10-2, 9-2, 8-1
.357 Double Action 10-1, 7-1, off-3

Ruger Security Six
.38 Single Action x-2, 10-2, 9-2
.38 Double Action 9-2, 7-2, off-2
.357 Single Action 10-1, 9-1, 8-2, off-2
.357 Double Action x-1, 9-3, 8-2

Ruger SP101
.38 DA: x-1, 9-2, 8-1, 7-1
.357 DA: 9-2, 8-2, off-1

Smith & Wesson Model 10
I did not shoot this one.

Smith & Wesson Model 60
.38 Single Action 10-1, 9-2, 8-1, 7-1
.38 Double Action 9-1, 8-3, 7-1
.357 Single Action x-1, 10-2, 8-1, waist-1
.357 Double Action x-1, 10-1, 9-1, 8-2

Smith and Wesson Model 327
.38 Single Action (didn’t try)
.38 Double Action (didn’t try)
.357 Single Action 9-4, 8-1, 7-2, off-1
.357 Double Action (4 shots, didn’t count the score, it was the last gun I shot and I was tired)

Smith & Wesson Model 642
I did not shoot this one.

Smith & Wesson Model 686
.38 Single Action x-1, 10-4, 9-1
.38 Double Action x-1, 9-3, 8-1, off-1
.357 Single Action 10-1, 9-3, 8-1, off-1
.357 Double Action x-3, 10-2, 9-1

Taurus 605
.38 Single Action 9-3, 7-2
.38 Double Action 8-1, 7-2, off-2
.357 Single Action 9-2, 8-3
.357 Double Action 9-2, 7-3

 

[Snapdragon]

Thanks for writing this up, Actaeon. I had a great time and learned that my little S&W 10 is more of a treasure than I thought. And now she's prettier with new walnut checkered grips that she didn't have for the shoot-off.

 

[45fan]

Nice write up.

It doesnt really surprise me on the conclusions that you came up with, as it seems that most of your opinions and tastes for snubbies are very similar to my own. I do not have quite the selection to choose from all at one time, but I do have a few Rugers and Smiths in the safe that I have compared.

My wife has always seemed to favor the Ruger offerings, and I have leaned toward the Smith line when it comes to DA revolvers. Its difficult to go wrong with either, and feeding any little gun with .357 tends to be less than pleasant to say the least. I think the only "snubie" in my safe that isnt terrible to shoot with magnum loads is my wife's Ruger Service Six, but I dont really look at it as the same type of gun as a J-Frame or equivalent. It is more like a full size revolver pretending to be a snubbie, lol.

I have sent a few Charter arms and Taurus owners to the gun stores though, after letting them shoot one of my Smiths. Most that have no frame of reference do not know what they are missing, but even a beginner can tell the difference in quality once they have a chance to actually shoot one. My wife converted her mother from a Taurus just by showing her LCR to her mom, she fell in love with it instantly.

Hopefully this will help guide others that are new to little revolvers in the right direction for them.

 

[IndyGunworks]

I have a question.... Your model 60, looks like its a similar size frame and grip as the 642, but will handle 357, and has MUCH better sights. Since concealing the grip is the hard part it seems that your 60 would be just as easy to conceal but offer significant gains in plinking and actual use. I have looked at firearms similar to that one. Seeing that picture made me want to look it up again, but when i google image searched model 60s i came up with no pictures similar to the one that you showed.

What am i missing, or how do i need to refine my search to look for this firearm? Perhaps yours is not factory grips?

It appears that you have standard J frame grips on it which are shorter and more compact than what looks like the factory grips that come on this gun.

Answered my own question... That gun would probably be much more pleasant to plink with if you add some longer grips.

I would have a set like the above for plinking, and a J frame set for carry. Wonder how much i could get out of my 642 thats been carried daily for about 8 years.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Are you sure the Charter was keyholing - and not just the paper ripping? That happens all the time with un-supported paper. The tears look suspiciously like keyholes.

Looking at the picture - I'd say this is what was happening.

 

[Birds Away]

Thanks for writing this up, Actaeon. I had a great time and learned that my little S&W 10 is more of a treasure than I thought. And now she's prettier with new walnut checkered grips that she didn't have for the shoot-off.

I agree, that's much better. She's a beauty now.

 

[Birds Away]

Also, thanks for the great write-up. That looks like it was a lot of fun.

 

[actaeon277]

I have a question.... Your model 60, looks like its a similar size frame and grip as the 642, but will handle 357, and has MUCH better sights. Since concealing the grip is the hard part it seems that your 60 would be just as easy to conceal but offer significant gains in plinking and actual use. I have looked at firearms similar to that one. Seeing that picture made me want to look it up again, but when i google image searched model 60s i came up with no pictures similar to the one that you showed.

What am i missing, or how do i need to refine my search to look for this firearm? Perhaps yours is not factory grips?

It appears that you have standard J frame grips on it which are shorter and more compact than what looks like the factory grips that come on this gun.

Answered my own question... That gun would probably be much more pleasant to plink with if you add some longer grips.

I would have a set like the above for plinking, and a J frame set for carry. Wonder how much i could get out of my 642 thats been carried daily for about 8 years.

I changed the grip to the rubber ones. It looks like your picture (above) but with rubber instead of wood.
But that metal in the center still kills the hand.
The LCR I shot had a grip with rubber all the way around. I'm going to look for something like that.

Are you sure the Charter was keyholing - and not just the paper ripping? That happens all the time with un-supported paper. The tears look suspiciously like keyholes.

Looking at the picture - I'd say this is what was happening.

Out of all the pistols, this was the only target this happened to. And it had far less holes in it.

 

[actaeon277]

Also, thanks for the great write-up. That looks like it was a lot of fun.

It was fun. But near the end, it actually stopped being fun. A lot of bang for small gun. OWWWW.

 

[GhostofWinter]

Umm...the 327 performance center was a ONE inch barrel not two.....

 

[actaeon277]

Umm...the 327 performance center was a ONE inch barrel not two.....

I was wondering about that. But all the info I find says 2.
I'll look it up again when I get home.

 

[indiucky]

Very nice write up....I know there are those that disagree but a snub nosed revolver is truly a "carry gun." A tool whose sole purpose is to get you home from the Circle K Quickie Mart after a 2am Milk run no matter what clothes you have on, even gym shorts, a T Shirt, and Flip Flops...

Everyone should have a J frame snub in their toolbox....

IMHO lest my comments be construed as "Testy" or "Religious" in nature...That happened once on this form when I dared to list K frame Smith's as one of the most innovative and important handguns of the 20th century...You see...It's a revolver and we all know how swing out cylinders that first appeared in 1889 are so much older and outdated compared to magazine fed handguns which first appeared in 1893....I mean Golly Gee Revolvers are so "Four years ago"...Right?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Very nice write up....I know there are those that disagree but a snub nosed revolver is truly a "carry gun." A tool whose sole purpose is to get you home from the Circle K Quickie Mart after a 2am Milk run no matter what clothes you have on, even gym shorts, a T Shirt, and Flip Flops...

Everyone should have a J frame snub in their toolbox....

IMHO lest my comments be construed as "Testy" or "Religious" in nature...That happened once on this form when I dared to list K frame Smith's as one of the most innovative and important handguns of the 20th century...You see...It's a revolver and we all know how swing out cylinders that first appeared in 1889 are so much older and outdated compared to magazine fed handguns which first appeared in 1893....I mean Golly Gee Revolvers are so "Four years ago"...Right?

Revolvers are the bee's knees! The cat's pajamas!

 

[squirrelhntr]

very nice post. kinda like goin to an old classic car show. every serious gun owner should have at least one basic meat and potatoes S.S. 3 5 7 in their tool box.

 

[Hookeye]

I do like the Model 60 Pro..............but wish Smith offered it in a Scandium version.

 

[actaeon277]

I do like the Model 60 Pro..............but wish Smith offered it in a Scandium version.

The model 60 was mine. I liked the heavy steel. What I do need is better grips. Something with rubber on the back, not just on the sides.