Civil discussion of ISIS from a religious point-of-view.

[ArcadiaGP]

We currently have an ISIS thread here for current events related to ISIS, and what they are doing across the world. This thread, however, will be to discuss the religious influences (or lack of) on the ISIS group as a whole. Do you feel ISIS truly is influenced by religion, or are they simply a militant group that does not properly or accurately represent Islam? Do you believe that ISIS is only made up of the most extreme of the religion, or does the religion itself possibly need some sort of reform?

Also, how do you feel when our current administration calls for people to "consider the Crusades" in response to ISIS actions?

Here are a few links related to the ties between ISIS and Islam. Please keep discussion here civil.

24 reasons ISIS are wrong: Muslim scholars blast Islamic State ? RT News
Nun: 'Islam Is ISIS. Whoever Says Otherwise Is a Liar' - World - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com
Obama Is Wrong That ISIS Is 'Not Islamic'*|*Alastair Crooke
ISIS and Islam: The Ugly Truth* :* Information Clearing House - ICH

 

[K_W]

Religious threads don't last long here... to divisive... but interested none the less.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Religious threads don't last long here... to divisive... but interested none the less.

This was created in regards to the new rule change allowing civil religious-based discussion. It feels dirty hitting that submit button, but I think we're capable of keeping this on-topic.

 

[Trigger Time]

The religion itself is the catalyst for the evil. There are certain things in the religion and especially sharia law that I would like banned from the U.S. Outright. Freedom of religion doesn't mean your allowed to break our other laws and be a terrorist. I frankly hate the way our society has tip toed around the truth that the whole reason Isis exist is because of a religion and they should be targeted based on that to begin with. If intelligence shows they are not involved in terrorist activity then Do not engage and kill

 

[D-Ric902]

I don't think Islam makes them terrorists. But they use Islam to justify terrorism.
I can be a radical fundamentalist catholic, but I don't hurt anyone then so what. Acting on it is criminal, believing it is not.

If I start cutting people's heads off and quoting the Old Testament then is the Old Testament to be blamed? No, that's foolish, I did the crime.
there are some that would want to ban PB&J sandwiches if I started shooting people "in the name of" PB&J.

I equate ISIS more to a gang than a religion. They may go thought the steps but they basically rape, pillage, and plunder. Justifying it with religion

 

[PaulF]

The religion itself is the catalyst for the evil. There are certain things in the religion and especially sharia law that I would like banned from the U.S. Outright. Freedom of religion doesn't mean your allowed to break our other laws and be a terrorist. I frankly hate the way our society has tip toed around the truth that the whole reason Isis exist is because of a religion and they should be targeted based on that to begin with. If intelligence shows they are not involved in terrorist activity then Do not engage and kill

I don't think Islam makes them terrorists. But they use Islam to justify terrorism.
I can be a radical fundamentalist catholic, but I don't hurt anyone then so what. Acting on it is criminal, believing it is not.

If I start cutting people's heads off and quoting the Old Testament then is the Old Testament to be blamed? No, that's foolish, I did the crime.
there are some that would want to ban PB&J sandwiches if I started shooting people "in the name of" PB&J.

I equate ISIS more to a gang than a religion. They may go thought the steps but they basically rape, pillage, and plunder. Justifying it with religion

I have to agree a little with both of these sentiments...these messages are there, but it up to the individual to internalize and act upon those messages.

ISIS is one group (and a composite, at that) among thousands of different Islamic groups around the world. The closer you look, the less they resemble one another. Islam is in desperate need of an "enlightenment" or "reformation" period similar to what Christianity and Judaism edured in the west.

 

[phylodog]

The religion itself is the catalyst for the evil. There are certain things in the religion and especially sharia law that I would like banned from the U.S. Outright. Freedom of religion doesn't mean your allowed to break our other laws and be a terrorist. I frankly hate the way our society has tip toed around the truth that the whole reason Isis exist is because of a religion and they should be targeted based on that to begin with. If intelligence shows they are not involved in terrorist activity then Do not engage and kill

Agreed. Unfortunately tip toeing around the truth (otherwise known as being politically correct) is the new America.

 

[skulhedface]

I honestly don't know that I could discuss ISIS and remain civil. I do look forward to reading this though.

 

[IndyDave1776]

It seems pretty simple to me:

If I am discussing what constitutes genuine Christianity, I will maintain that the answer is found by reading the scripture and examining the actions and teachings of Christ. The extent to which an idea, and action, or a person conforms to the example of Christ is the extent to which it is Christian.

Likewise, if I am discussing Islam, the extent to which a person, group, idea, or action conforms to the Quran and the example and teaching of Mohammad is the extent to which it is genuine Islam.

Based on that standard, I would argue that ISIS is made up of some of the most studious practitioners of Islam on the planet.

By the way, if those 24 reasons why ISIS is wrong were actually practiced by a significant portion of Islamic society, it would lend credence to the claim to be a religion of peace. To the best of my knowledge Jordan is the only Islamic country which may come anywhere near close to this and it is a small country.

 

[PaulF]

Dave, is a person who takes up serpents a true Christian?

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Dave, is a person who takes up serpents a true Christian?

Scripture reference?

 

[PaulF]

Luke 10:19
Mark 16:17-18

(Edit: Maybe Acts 28, the first bit.)

Referring specifically to the followers of the Appalachian Holiness Movement.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Dave, is a person who takes up serpents a true Christian?

I understand the passage from which this derives, but I consider it an irrelevant point. In my reckoning it is like asking if a person who drives a Buick is a true conservative. I would imagine that there are true Christians who play with snakes as well as charlatans. I would also point out that in any system of belief you are going to find a great many levels of maturity and immaturity. I would have to know a lot more about the person, particularly his or her understanding of the doctrine of salvation and the extent to which he/she conforms to acceptable doctrine in this regard.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Luke 10:19
Mark 16:17-18

(Edit: Maybe Acts 28, the first bit.)

Referring specifically to the followers of the Appalachian Holiness Movement.

Dealing with those passages directly I believe that the point is that those following Christ need not fear these things. I do NOT believe it contains any mandate to do any such thing for the sake of proving a point.

I will also say that, as with any group, you will find less mature members who do feel a need to prove a point rather than accept characteristics which will be manifested incidentally to doing what one is directly called to do, i.e., carrying the Gospel to every living creature.

 

[PaulF]

I understand the passage from which this derives, but I consider it an irrelevant point. In my reckoning it is like asking if a person who drives a Buick is a true conservative. I would imagine that there are true Christians who play with snakes as well as charlatans. I would also point out that in any system of belief you are going to find a great many levels of maturity and immaturity. I would have to know a lot more about the person, particularly his or her understanding of the doctrine of salvation and the extent to which he/she conforms to acceptable doctrine in this regard.

Dave, it is important. There is all kinds of stuff in that book. People can build some pretty dangerous beliefs and still be within the realm of "Genuine Christians". Hell, the prisons are full of "Genuine Christians".

The same goes for the Islamic holy book. Just because it is in the book doesn't mean people can't be dissuaded from acting upon it...the church I grew up in didn't take up serpents, for instance.

 

[D-Ric902]

I saw a woman once dance with a snake and do a lot of "other things" does that mean she is a Christian?
Anything can be twisted.
indydave put it very well. Thank you

 

[deal me in]

It's beyond doubt that Isis is influenced by religion. Just listen to their dogma. Whether Isis represents Islam or not is impossible to say. Just like with Christianity, everyone has their own opinion about who is a "true" Muslim. Based on Islamic texts they can certainly make a case that they represent true Islam. I agree that Islam is in desperate need of reform, but it can only come from within and I've see no indication that large numbers of "mainstream" Muslims are interested in pushing back against the radicals.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Muslims are interested in pushing back against the radicals.

You don't hear a lot about that, though. Either the media doesn't put it front-and-center, or it's not happening enough. I think it's true, and I think ISIS is bastardizing the religion they claim to hold. However, I also believe there are parts of the religion that are outright abhorrent... (such as 100+ verses that tell you to kill nonbelievers). Groups like ISIS must've really read into those parts and took it upon themselves to dish it out.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Dave, it is important. There is all kinds of stuff in that book. People can build some pretty dangerous beliefs and still be within the realm of "Genuine Christians". Hell, the prisons are full of "Genuine Christians".

The same goes for the Islamic holy book. Just because it is in the book doesn't mean people can't be dissuaded from acting upon it...the church I grew up in didn't take up serpents, for instance.

I understand what you are saying, but it brings me back to the point that Christ nor the Apostles played with snakes (that incident of Paul emerging unharmed after being bitten by a venomous snake notwithstanding, but this brings me back to my point that it is incidental, not something done to prove a point), nor did they protest with signs that say "God hates fags", nor did they harm anyone for not believing.

I won't try to say that all Moslems must believe a certain way by virtue of being Moslems. I will hold to my default position that using the contents of the Quran and example of Mohammad are the best tool for understanding the nature of Islam. That doesn't guarantee universal agreement among professing believers, but it is still the standard I feel most correct. That said, I would like to see a change in street average for Islam, but would accept that with the notion that they are essentially making up their own faith.

 

[deal me in]

You don't hear a lot about that, though. Either the media doesn't put it front-and-center, or it's not happening enough. I think it's true, and I think ISIS is bastardizing the religion they claim to hold. However, I also believe there are parts of the religion that are outright abhorrent... (such as 100+ verses that tell you to kill nonbelievers). Groups like ISIS must've really read into those parts and took it upon themselves to dish it out.

No doubt that Islamic religious texts make it much more difficult for the moderates to make their case. It also puts us in a real bind. Our only realistic solution to radical Islam and terrorism is to kill them all, but by doing that we feed right into their propaganda machine that uses western aggression as a recruiting tool. It's a no win situation for us.