Yeager: IDPA vs. IPSC

[rvb]

So the critisism of IDPA is that it is too gamey and equipment oriented? You mean the game that was created because all the gamers were ruining IPSC.

When I say equipment focused, I mean too restrictive. I've known a lot of guys over the years that wouldn't come shoot it because their CARRY piece wasn't legal....

-rvb

 

[rhino]

When I say equipment focused, I mean too restrictive. I've known a lot of guys over the years that wouldn't come shoot it because their CARRY piece wasn't legal....

-rvb

It causes me physical pain to download magazines just to play the game. I shot in SSP on the 13th and had to take 17 rounds out of the mags of my carry gun. The reason for the restriction has some validity when IDPA was born during the "assault weapons ban," but that's no longer the case in states where there is some vestige of freedom left. It bothers me even more to download an AR to 10 rounds to shoot the IDPA version of 3-gun, which is one reason why I won't do it.

 

[yournamehere]

Meh! Everyone who claims to be a seal knows 3 gun is the only true tactical training sport. Especially the open class.

 

[rvb]

It causes me physical pain to download magazines just to play the game. I shot in SSP on the 13th and had to take 17 rounds out of the mags of my carry gun. The reason for the restriction has some validity when IDPA was born during the "assault weapons ban," but that's no longer the case in states where there is some vestige of freedom left. It bothers me even more to download an AR to 10 rounds to shoot the IDPA version of 3-gun, which is one reason why I won't do it.

I'm ok w/ the round limits for handgun, the AWB was only part of the reason for it. If you want folks to use their carry guns, eg a G26, then you can't have them compete w/ G34s, because round count would rule the day. The round limits don't keep people from using their gear, and the rules I have problems with keep people from using gear they are using day to day....

now for rifle, 10 rounds is just......... !! I've never done official idpa 3-gun, just outlaw 3-gun w/ idpa scoring 'back in the day.'

what are you carrying that has 27 rounds in the mag!?! An AR pistol?!

-rvb

 

[ViperJock]

I am going to replace "Make Ready" with "F'in Kick Some Sht" [2:01]

-rvb

LOL

I would also like to say that having a "minor" and "major" category propagates the outdated imperialist dogma that a 45 kills better than a 9. While we are changing the rules (as per RVB's new range commands) lets add in an additional RO that is a certified coroner to determine effective deathness of each shot. For example, I have been down graded by shots which have obviously pierced the carotid artery but are out of the Alpha zone. Or how about a groin shot? clearly this would take an attacker out of the fight. Lets get real here people.

 

[mongo404]

Your not going to convince a avid IDPA shooter that USPSA (IPSC) is the sport to shoot. And your not going to convince a USPSA shooter IDPA is the better sport.
When it boils down to it just shoot what you like. But I recommend you try different ones. Both will increase your skills with a handgun. Both sports are also a good way to test the capability of your handgun. I myself like the freestyle aspect of USPSA

 

[Coach]

LOL

I would also like to say that having a "minor" and "major" category propagates the outdated imperialist dogma that a 45 kills better than a 9. While we are changing the rules (as per RVB's new range commands) lets add in an additional RO that is a certified coroner to determine effective deathness of each shot. For example, I have been down graded by shots which have obviously pierced the carotid artery but are out of the Alpha zone. Or how about a groin shot? clearly this would take an attacker out of the fight. Lets get real here people.

The reward for major scoring is not because of how lethal the cartridge is but the fact that you have to deal with more recoil and that makes shooting at speed tougher and the recoil makes it more difficult to shoot fast and accurately. 9mm is considered the bottom of acceptable defensive pistol rounds. I think they made a good choice there.

 

[rvb]

Your not going to convince a avid IDPA shooter that USPSA (IPSC) is the sport to shoot. And your not going to convince a USPSA shooter IDPA is the better sport.
When it boils down to it just shoot what you like. But I recommend you try different ones. Both will increase your skills with a handgun. Both sports are also a good way to test the capability of your handgun. I myself like the freestyle aspect of USPSA

As someone w/ many years experience w/ both and who switched, yes you can convince folks to switch... but it happens on the range not internet banter. The internet entrenches; getting folks to step out of their comfort zone, try it, and make their own determination is hard to do.

The reward for major scoring is not because of how lethal the cartridge is but the fact that you have to deal with more recoil and that makes shooting at speed tougher and the recoil makes it more difficult to shoot fast and accurately. 9mm is considered the bottom of acceptable defensive pistol rounds. I think they made a good choice there.

recoil is part of it, the trade-off in capacity vs points is the other part of it. I too like the system.

-rvb

 

[ViperJock]

The reward for major scoring is not because of how lethal the cartridge is but the fact that you have to deal with more recoil and that makes shooting at speed tougher and the recoil makes it more difficult to shoot fast and accurately. 9mm is considered the bottom of acceptable defensive pistol rounds. I think they made a good choice there.

I was being facetious. But I do totally disagree with you. If the sport IDPA ( --I think its fine for uspsa) is about practical defensive pistol and if there is no difference in outcomes there should be no difference in scoring. If all the "major" people want to see scoresbroken down by their own category then fine,but the overall score should not be affected by caliber. Choice of which weapon to use and post factory modifications create at least as much inequality as caliber.
Also, in "fairness" a 45 makes a bigger hole so near miss of the A zone may snag the crease and get a higher score than the same center point of a 9. But in reality a lung shot is a lung shot and you are correct in saying that 9mmis "considered" the bottom of acceptable defensive pistol rounds, but I believe the data does not support that notion. Or am I wrong?

I do think round limits are good because they force you to practice magazine changes and since it IS about practice I don't see the problem with that. The easy way around that is to ust require magazine changesin the stage. Let people load 30rounds, but make them do a change. Mag changes are part of gun handling and should therefore be a part of the match, even if not in every stage.

Bottom line is that these are useful games. Just like Monopoly can teach strategy but is not the same as real life on Wall Street.

 

[sbcman]

There's also a few of us around that see no need to "switch"- we like both sports and have a great time in each

 

[Coach]

Pretty hard to take Yeager serious even if you agree with what he is spewing at this time or that time. I never placed much stock in him, but after the quick retreat from the "Pack your bags" videos I place no stock in anything he says. Not one more inch turned into I am sorry I was mad and did not mean it. Where is the conviction? No conviction then who cares what he is running off at the mouth about. I wish people would quit posting him on this website. I would like to think we are better than that. JY does what he does for publicity and the folks here who post his stuff regularly are doing the same thing.

 

[Coach]

I was being facetious. But I do totally disagree with you. If the sport IDPA ( --I think its fine for uspsa) is about practical defensive pistol and if there is no difference in outcomes there should be no difference in scoring. If all the "major" people want to see scoresbroken down by their own category then fine,but the overall score should not be affected by caliber. Choice of which weapon to use and post factory modifications create at least as much inequality as caliber.
Also, in "fairness" a 45 makes a bigger hole so near miss of the A zone may snag the crease and get a higher score than the same center point of a 9. But in reality a lung shot is a lung shot and you are correct in saying that 9mmis "considered" the bottom of acceptable defensive pistol rounds, but I believe the data does not support that notion. Or am I wrong?

I do think round limits are good because they force you to practice magazine changes and since it IS about practice I don't see the problem with that. The easy way around that is to ust require magazine changesin the stage. Let people load 30rounds, but make them do a change. Mag changes are part of gun handling and should therefore be a part of the match, even if not in every stage.

Bottom line is that these are useful games. Just like Monopoly can teach strategy but is not the same as real life on Wall Street.

Neither of these are training alone. I cannot explain anything about IDPA. Much of it I do not understand.

As to 9mm bottom I agree with it. Plenty of people have been killed by .22 or .32 calibers but larger calibers do a better job. Drop yourself into a situation with three bad guys that need shot. Does it matter if the gun is a .32acp or a .45acp. Both can work but which are you going to choose? I will go bigger. 9mm or 45 I don't really care which it is. I also understand that small is better than nothing but that is not what I am talking about here.

 

[ViperJock]

Neither of these are training alone. I cannot explain anything about IDPA. Much of it I do not understand.

As to 9mm bottom I agree with it. Plenty of people have been killed by .22 or .32 calibers but larger calibers do a better job. Drop yourself into a situation with three bad guys that need shot. Does it matter if the gun is a .32acp or a .45acp. Both can work but which are you going to choose? I will go bigger. 9mm or 45 I don't really care which it is. I also understand that small is better than nothing but that is not what I am talking about here.

They are not training alone. The great thing, IMO, about these games is the ability to learn how much practice you really need to be "good enough" and secondarily, gun safety and knowledge of your own weapon. Are they real life? Of course not. Are they a far cry better than standing still at a range and fire without even drawing first? I think so. People who think that these games can't teach them anything are drowning in their own hubris.

I hear what you assume about the larger calibers doing it better, but I'm not sure the data actually supports that. It would make sense, but I'm not sure it is true. I will say that I'm familiar with a lot of.22 with Alpha score shots that did not do much of anything. I'd say accuracy and ammunition choice probably contribute more to stopping targets than caliber from the data I've read. If you have data to the contrary, I'd be happy to read it and change my mind. I was recently at a nationally recognized class (TDI) and one of the primary instructors (ex-SWAT) was giving me crap for carrying a .40 instead of a 9. His opinion? yeah, but he has some experience to form an opinion with. Anyway, I'm not trying to make this into a caliber war, after all, I only posted my first post as a joke...

 

[rvb]

There's also a few of us around that see no need to "switch"- we like both sports and have a great time in each

True...

what happened to me was the number of free weekends dropped off sharply, and it became a question of "knowing I won't get to shoot again for a month, which would I rather do today." Next thing I know, 5 yrs have passed since my last idpa match... making matters worse, the rules have changed a couple of times in that period, so [for example] it's no longer clear to me when I'm allowed to reload or not w/o studying the rule book and reading a bunch of on-line chatter to see how to interpret the rule book, and well... the other sport lets me reload whenever I see fit.

There's other, more-significant reasons I made the 'switch.' JY implied them in this vid, but never came out and said it......

-rvb

 

[sbcman]

True...

what happened to me was the number of free weekends dropped off sharply, and it became a question of "knowing I won't get to shoot again for a month, which would I rather do today." Next thing I know, 5 yrs have passed since my last idpa match... making matters worse, the rules have changed a couple of times in that period, so [for example] it's no longer clear to me when I'm allowed to reload or not w/o studying the rule book and reading a bunch of on-line chatter to see how to interpret the rule book, and well... the other sport lets me reload whenever I see fit.

There's other, more-significant reasons I made the 'switch.' JY implied them in this vid, but never came out and said it......

-rvb

Many things in life have no respect for a competitive shooter's schedule!

 

[Que]

Pretty hard to take Yeager serious even if you agree with what he is spewing at this time or that time. I never placed much stock in him, but after the quick retreat from the "Pack your bags" videos I place no stock in anything he says. Not one more inch turned into I am sorry I was mad and did not mean it. Where is the conviction? No conviction then who cares what he is running off at the mouth about. I wish people would quit posting him on this website. I would like to think we are better than that. JY does what he does for publicity and the folks here who post his stuff regularly are doing the same thing.

I don't post Yeager regularly, but I recently posted an interview with him. I like watching training videos that give people an idea what classes are like. That is why I took Tactical Response's Fighting Pistol, along with Range Time FP 101 and Mindset Labs' class. I was very new to civilian training and having the opportunity to get a glimpse of what to expect helped me make the decision to attend. I would think there are many others out there just like me. I can get over loud-mouthed know-it-alls, which Yeager can be at times, but I would stand behind his training -- and can -- because I've attended.

I took ACT's Defensive Pistol 201 strictly from word of mouth. I found John to be one of the most knowledgable trainers I've had. He didn't put down any other trainers and actually told me why he suggested that I changed certain things that I may have been taught. If I disagreed, he accepted it and carried on, but was not offended. If he had a video or something that gave me the opportunity to see him in action, I probably would have been in his class a long time ago! Now, that's just me and I'm sure there are some who can care less about commercials or videos.

Posting things from Yeager is like internet candy. It makes everyone get in and participate. If this video was about what Fenway thought about IPSC and IDPA, it would have died long ago, but some of our most popular Indiana-based trainers have responded. Why is that? We have no ulterior motive by posting Yeager videos. We just want discussion and sometimes it even goes beyond the "I hate that guy" into some quality learning opportunities.

As for this video and to stop my thread jack, I don't shoot either one, because one appears to be boring and the other only takes place on Sunday.

 

[Rob377]

They are not training alone. The great thing, IMO, about these games is the ability to learn how much practice you really need to be "good enough" and secondarily, gun safety and knowledge of your own weapon. Are they real life? Of course not. Are they a far cry better than standing still at a range and fire without even drawing first? I think so. People who think that these games can't teach them anything are drowning in their own hubris.

..

Boom. There it is.

No offense intended to anyone - but there are a lot of people with that hubris. They post all over the interweb like they're some kind of pistol ninja, but in reality, they suck. Bad. They shun 'games' because 'games' force a painful realization that the aren't the expert pistolero they like to portray themselves as. The gamer hate is a self-imposed Dunning Kruger effect.

 

[Grelber]

There's also a few of us around that see no need to "switch"- we like both sports and have a great time in each

And steels!

If I were king there would be a little bit more marksmanship weighed in to a typical USPSA match, might feel completely different if I wasn't so durn slow .

I was told that USPSA does not like difficult targets because they don't fit well with use of big dot optics that sit high off the gun??? Not trying to irritate, just curious.

 

[Rob377]

And steels!

If I were king there would be a little bit more marksmanship weighed in to a typical USPSA match, might feel completely different if I wasn't so durn slow .

I was told that USPSA does not like difficult targets because they don't fit well with use of big dot optics that sit high off the gun??? Not trying to irritate, just curious.

You haven't shot a CB45 designed USPSA stage! In all seriousness, the USPSA matches I've been to have, on average, much higher difficulty shots than any of the IDPA matches I've been to. Looking at the IDPA course design guidelines, it's easy to see why. No targets more than 15yds? No more than 2 no shoots on stage? Very little shooting while moving (and only when Simon Says)? (and reading over the course design guidelines, you can see all the stuff about "real world" this and "real world" that Yeager was alluding to when talking about how IDPA takes itself too seriously)

Come to USPSA @ ACC this weekend, and I GUARANTEE you, you won't be complaining about the level of marksmanship required.


And most USPSA shooters aren't using dots, FWIW. Common misconception, but there's more to USPSA than Open Division. At the local club matches, Production, Limited and Single Stack (all iron sighted divisions) will all have more shooters than Open.

 

[rvb]

And steels!

If I were king there would be a little bit more marksmanship weighed in to a typical USPSA match, might feel completely different if I wasn't so durn slow .

I was told that USPSA does not like difficult targets because they don't fit well with use of big dot optics that sit high off the gun??? Not trying to irritate, just curious.

If anything, the dots make it easier to make quick accurate hits on hard targets. It's no different than knowing your holds w/ an AR. Even with a close zero (I forget now where mine was set, I think 10 yds), the bullet hits w/in a couple inches all the way to 35yds. At 50yd I was about a head height high, and at 75yds I was hitting about 9" high. But when you can focus on your sight and the target at the same time, that's still way faster than irons.

AAC had some nice tough shots last time I was down there... the stage that started w/ the no-shoots and hardcover blocking the targets and ended w/ the array of movers... good stuff! Only a few folks made it through that stage w/o penalties.

It really comes down to the designer's "style"

-rvb