Wood post without cement?

[wcd]

Have been looking into it I need to bump out our front fence about 60 feet, the section is about a 240 run across. I am considering trying it with out concrete, cement etc. Has anyone done it this way before? we have plenty of clay and gravel. Seems like it would be a lot cheaper to buy a tamping bar, versus bags upon bags of quick crete.

Thoughts please

 

[dudley0]

Where is your frost line? That's what will determine it for you.

 

[rem788]

When we built out cabin I did a lot of research on this subject. Basically two camps: with and without concrete in the post hole. The with say it improves the stability of the post and prevents/slows heaving from freeze thaw. The without claim the concrete will hold moisture against the post and create rot. Of course both camps claim they have been doing it "this way" forever without problems. I decided to go without since the location was well drained and stable soils. In your situation since it is a fence and there will not be substantial weight/wind forces on the posts you could go without. Just my opinion, I am not a construction expert.

 

[HubertGummer]

If you fill the hole with crushed stone and pack it down you will get the best of both. It will still drain so moisture won't be held against the post and the crushed stone will support the post better than just dirt.

Don't forget to put a layer of stone in the hole under the post as well.

 

[Mongo59]

I am with Hubert on this.

I work on a church ministry putting up wheelchair ramps. We have done way too many to count, some more than 50ft long. We never use concrete and all are still as true today as when put in. Granted the above ground structure maintains the position of the post...

 

[Mongo59]

A nice spud bar with the round tamping end on it is a must.

Word to the wise: gently "throw" the bar rather than "hammer" the bar. In other words use a loose grip and let the bar do the work rather than thinking you can beat it into submission. Saves wear and tear on the joints...

 

[Snapdragon]

This looks interesting...

[video=youtube;1Sp5MU9AL14]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Sp5MU9AL14[/video]

 

[chocktaw2]

Very interesting Snap, thanks.

 

[gregkl]

Someone at work tried that foam and it didn't work for her. Could have been operator error but she is pretty good at following instructions and is handy.

I'm also with Herbert. Crushed stone (angular, not round or smooth) will hold it tight.

 

[phylodog]

I'm getting ready to spend $4000 to have 2000' of posts driven into the ground. I built a privacy fence at my last house and used concrete on the posts, never again. Half of them were rotted within 10 years.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I'm getting ready to spend $4000 to have 2000' of posts driven into the ground. I built a privacy fence at my last house and used concrete on the posts, never again. Half of them were rotted within 10 years.

I have about a 50ft run of privacy fence at my place that I put in about 13 years ago, posts in concrete. During those big winds a few weeks back, three of my posts were rotted enough to break off just below ground. I thought it was more because the area stays wet, but you're probably right about the concrete. I'm going to replace the posts with packed soil this time.

 

[dudley0]

So without crete how do you keep the posts from heaving when freeze and thaw happens?

 

[hoosierdoc]

So without crete how do you keep the posts from heaving when freeze and thaw happens?

I thought if below frost line it won’t get upward pressure on it from ground expansion?

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I thought if below frost line it won’t get upward pressure on it from ground expansion?

That's what I think does it. I have four 4X4 posts that I put in a little over 3ft deep as part of a grape trellis, and back-filled with tamped soil, and they're still fine after 6 or 8 years.

A neighbor had fenced off a small pasture for horses some years ago, with wood posts and that high-tension wire, and his corner post-structures were put in with concrete. But, the way he dug the holes, they flared out at the top, and the frost-heave raised them a little bit each year until now they sit on top of the ground.

 

[gregkl]

But, the way he dug the holes, they flared out at the top, and the frost-heave raised them a little bit each year until now they sit on top of the ground.

He flared them out backwards. He should have flared out the bottom of the hole. That would keep the posts from heaving up.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

For my decks, I dug post holes down past the frost line and filled them with concrete, making pads at the surface. The 4x4s just sit on top of them. The structure of the deck, and the way it's tied into the house's ledger board, keep them stable, but it allows some movement with thermal expansion and contraction. I sought not to build stress into the structure. One has remained perfect for nearly 20 years, and the other is coming upward of 10. The rear deck I replaced had so much stress built in, it seemed like it was about to explode after about 20 years.

I've also put posts in post holes with just dirt backfill, when they're alone with no lateral force, or when they're built into a small stable structure like a tool locker. One of my projects this spring is a little privacy fence to hide my trailer, trash cans, etc. I was thinking concrete for the corners, but I'm going to try that gravel thing.

 

[dudley0]

Guess I was always under the impression that you needed to go below the frost line and have a wider base to stop the heave.

I know that since they made the old pressure treated stuff illegal you don't get the distance from the boards any more. I have talked to pole barn builders who won't use big stuff because the factory can't get the treatment in far enough, so they layer boards more often.

What keeps the post from heaving up if you don't have something bigger attached at the base?

 

[gregkl]

Guess I was always under the impression that you needed to go below the frost line and have a wider base to stop the heave.

I know that since they made the old pressure treated stuff illegal you don't get the distance from the boards any more. I have talked to pole barn builders who won't use big stuff because the factory can't get the treatment in far enough, so they layer boards more often.

What keeps the post from heaving up if you don't have something bigger attached at the base?

Of course on the internet you can find someone who will say what a person wants to hear. It's up to us to sort through the correct way to do things and the way some people think is correct.

I usually do a lot of research reading several different sources, find out what pros do and then make my decision. Hopefully I make the right choice.

What I do is dig below the frost line, widen out the bottom of the hole, fill it with concrete and set my framing members in a bracket on top of the concrete which is about 2" above the ground. This keeps the post away from dampness and allows some flexibility when setting the posts. It may not be as stable as it would be if I sunk it in the ground and poured concrete around it. But if I ever had an issue, it is easier to make repairs or replace posts when they are above ground. Plus if the post is plumb and tied to a ledger board system like mentioned above, it should be fine.

Of course this is for a deck, not applicable to fencing.

 

[dudley0]

You fill each hole completely with concrete? Interesting, but it seems that if you change your mind in the future you have a lot of work involved with turning that area back into a yard.

The information that I am using comes from my years of working for people that knew better than me at the time. I just wonder if the times have changed a lot since way back then.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Of course on the internet you can find someone who will say what a person wants to hear. It's up to us to sort through the correct way to do things and the way some people think is correct.

I usually do a lot of research reading several different sources, find out what pros do and then make my decision. Hopefully I make the right choice.

What I do is dig below the frost line, widen out the bottom of the hole, fill it with concrete and set my framing members in a bracket on top of the concrete which is about 2" above the ground. This keeps the post away from dampness and allows some flexibility when setting the posts. It may not be as stable as it would be if I sunk it in the ground and poured concrete around it. But if I ever had an issue, it is easier to make repairs or replace posts when they are above ground. Plus if the post is plumb and tied to a ledger board system like mentioned above, it should be fine.

Of course this is for a deck, not applicable to fencing.

It sounds like you're basically pouring footers, no?