Why the decline in SHTF/HD shotguns?

[Disposable Heart]

Though I'm one of those "years and years on the AR" guys I too recommend shotguns for home defense as opposed to carbine rifles for the reasons the OP listed. They're cheap, easy to use, reliable, and the main reason that nobody seems to have touched on yet is I want the biggest longest "club" I can have if I'm fighting someone. Length is detrimental in home defense situations unless fighting from a fixed position. The more length, the more leverage that can be used against you or that you have to contend with going around a corner

Fighting inside a house may not be Seal Team Delta Operator-esque like all those ECQCB classes point you toward. You may not need to clear the room with your buddies using your 580 lumen rail mounted cree bulb. Chances are there'll be a noise downstairs, your wife will bump you in the ribs, and you'll flip on the lightswitch as you walk down the steps with your shotgun in hand. In a case like that, you may find the methed out kid from down the street, your daughter's boyfriend, or maybe a couple of friendly burglars.

Are you going to dump 30 rounds in your living room? Absolutely. If two or three rounds will not perform the task, then dump the magazine

I find it funny that gun owners always assume it's going to be a deadly force encounter. Every single time he's going to have to shoot a squad of Rangers camped out in his kitchen. Why isn't the scenario a drunk teenager who's just looking for a place to ****? Because Indiana favors the concept of property rights in terms of defense. Someone breaks into my house, which has locked doors and secured windows, looking for a place to "****", then they have already become a threat in light of common sense and color of Indiana law. While every situation isn't one of deadly force, we have to be prepared as those who don't, do not win the day

In all these "less than platoon size encounters," would you rather fight someone (hand to hand) with an AR or a big ol' shotgun? I'm not doing that, the reason I have a gun is so I don't have to roll around with some jagov that broke into my house. By that reasoning, I would want a halberd or yari spear.

Having less lethal options should be considered in home defense. Personally, I have a 590A1 with the bayonet on it just for that purpose. The human psyche can be a weird thing. Those pointy sticks can sometimes be scarier than the black guns. Giving someone a "nudge" out of your house is pretty easy when you're poking them with a pointy stick. "But slim, you can poke them with the bayonet on your AR too." Sure, but it's going to be about a foot closer than the bayo on your shotgun. A bayonet is a lethal option, not less lethal. If I give someone a "nudge" with a bayonet out my door as they are leaving, I'm going to jail. Review Indiana state law on use of force for more details. I also eschew the concept of the threat of force as a valid deterrent, placing it akin to a sticker that says "I don't call 911" on my door. Does little to deter a determined or armed intruder.

Reach is important in a fight. Physics are important in a fight. While the AR is a great tool for running and gunning, I'd much rather buttstroke someone with my shotgun than the little collapsible stock on the AR. Again, if you want to close distance with an attacker that has already destroyed the sanctity of your home, go ahead, but I generally advise against it. Last thing you want is to be the person that is shot with your own gun.

See response in red...

 

[Tomahawkman]

Very much agree with the points above ^

I certainly would dump 30 rounds into my living room as well if the situation called for it. 30 holes in my house can be repaired, being killed cant. Personal property damage is low on the totem pole of priority in a life or death situation.

Im certainly not going hands on in that situation if it can be avoided, thats a big weapon retention issue there.

 

[Jacky]

I thumbs up that statement from Expat!

 

[Psode27]

Joe Biden says shotgun. Close thread!

 

[wcd]

Joe Biden says shotgun. Close thread!

Joe Biden..

But seriously I don't know if Hickok45 is popular in Indiana but he does an excellent video on Shotgun use and the idea its hard to miss with them.

I am not an Ar fan but I can appreciate that they can be a solid option for home security.

 

[Fordtough25]

Joe Biden..

But seriously I don't know if Hickok45 is popular in Indiana but he does an excellent video on Shotgun use and the idea its hard to miss with them.

I am not an Ar fan but I can appreciate that they can be a solid option for home security.

I enjoy Hickok45's shotgun video's, they are great! I think each person needs to evaluate their home defense needs and master that weapon system. Whether it be a pistol, carbine, or shotgun to each their own.

 

[WestSider]

A tribute to crazy uncle Joe... Old now but I still laugh every time I see it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv66RiFC4T0

 

[tcecil88]

I have not switched to the AR, I added it to my HD battery after getting back from Iraq and purchasing a rifle.
HD battery is as follows: Glock 17, Mossberg 930 SPX, Windham Weaponry AR, Remington 700 AAC-SD in .308. I like having options

 

[foszoe]

I like familiarity for HD. I would have the same model across different gauges.

 

[Thor]

I enjoy Hickok45's shotgun video's, they are great! I think each person needs to evaluate their home defense needs and master that weapon system. Whether it be a pistol, carbine, or shotgun to each their own.

All the above!

 

[deadsquirrel]

ARs are selling because of a perceived potential ban. Joe Biden says we should have shotguns so we know those are far down the line. People are stocking up on what they might not be able to down the road... Has little to do with best home defense choice.

 

[Tombs]

Well I cant sleep and I was wondering why it seems the 12 gauge shotgun for SHTF preps and HD is on the decline?

I understand alot of ex military and competitive guys have huge amounts of time on the AR and it makes sense,but for my relatively college age and less experiance (and generally close to broke) buddies, I have been steering them towards good old12 gauge pumps like a maverick 88 or the Chinese 870 clone.

I understand also that if your running as part of a team, especially with LE or mil/ex mil guys and have a bunch of spare parts and ammo and expertise with the platform the AR again might be a better choice, but I submit for the average joe just looking for a gun, the cheap defensive/general purpose shotgun might be a better choice.

I see it, for a home defense scenario, you have several benefits, namely
-Greater terminal effect (3 inch buckshot is pretty gnarly)
-Damned near close to 100% reliability(a big plus especially if your spending under $300 or building a budget AR)
-Range is not as much a factor
-Exceptionally cheap
-Birdshot for practice and to shoot clays with can be had for the same price or less as brass cased .223/5.56 or .40

And for a survival scenario
-ammo can be loaded very easily with almost no tools and improvised propellants. I have loaded shotgun shells with a nail, block of wood, dowel, BBs and ground up sparklers
-can be used for small game and bird hunting
-most realistic SHTF engagements will be up close and personal, house to house and face to face, not shooting suppressive fire at UN troops or ISIS on a ridgeline 400 yards away.
-The only real spare parts you need to keep it running is a bore snake, maybe a spare extractor, and some motor oil to use as lube.

The benefits of a shotgun are in lethality and price, in every other realm they lose out to modern rifles in every single way.

Yes, that's right and I'm going to say it, a load of 12 gauge 00 buck is not going to stop someone any faster than a 5.56 M193 to the chest. Difference is, they may survive the M193, but they certainly aren't going to be moving after being hit by it at close range. 00 buck will kill them 3 quarters of the time regardless of medical help.

00 buck also continues on through the body, through a wall, and into your neighbor's house. 5.56 M193 will fragment inside of the body and if anything exits, it's going to be stopped by a sheet or 2 of drywall.

Decent 12 gauge ammo is also expensive, even the cheapest 00 buck you can find is still HUGELY more expensive than M193 ball. Your reliable and effective range is also less than 25 yards, granted you can gamble on longer shots out to obscene distances, that's where your pattern starts growing too large to reliably stay on a chest sized target. Meanwhile 5.56 is going to be effective for a greater distance than most individuals are capable of shooting, but its lethality drops off sharply after 100 yards out of anything less than a 20" barrel.

Almost any other load in 12 gauge besides bigger pellets than 00 buck and slugs are woefully inadequate for social work. Those happen to also be the most expensive rounds, on average, for 12 gauge besides specialized sabots intended for rifled barrels.

Pump action shotgun reliability is also massively overstated, there's just as many, if not more, things that can go wrong and cause the weapon to malfunction. Many of them are simply shooter error, since it's very easy to cause a malfunction especially under stress. Meanwhile a proper milspec AR15 will work in almost any condition and will be more reliable than your average $200 mossberg. Not to mention, in SHTF servicing an AR15 is vastly easier, and far more parts for them will be around than will be for these shotguns.

The shotgun has largely fallen out of favor as firearms education has improved in this country. Once the shotgun myths are destroyed, there's no practical benefit to one over an AR15 for anything besides hunting.

As far as practicing with birdshot... If you're only going to shoot birdshot at birds, yeah that's great. But if you're going to practice with birdshot and then shoot 00 buck, your practice is almost pointless. Your patterns are entirely different, your point of aim can be considerably different, and the recoil impulse is vastly different. So if you're going to use 00 buck, practice with 00 buck, do not practice with birdshot with the intention of using 00 buck.

It's going to take a lot more rounds of 12 gauge to become proficient with the firearm than any AR in 5.56, something else to also remember.

 

[VERT]

Good post Tombs but I disagree with a couple small points. A single good hit from 00 buck is devastating compared to 5.56 ball. Every carbine course I have attended had us deliver 3 or more shots center mass with the 5.56. We even practiced failure drills. Plenty of examples with bad guys fighting after getting hit with multiple carbine rounds. Shotguns are not mythical but 9 pellets of 00 buck delivered to a centralized area does a lot to overwhelm the brain and send a person into shock. No guarantee but the shotgun is the single most powerful weapon the everyday Joe can shoulder. 00 is the standard 12 gauge load but even 1 buck or #3/4 out of a 20 gauge is quite powerful.

I look at self defense guns as being able to deliver servings. My 1911 has two servings, Glock 19 3 servings, an AR 6 to 10 servings. Considering my shotgun holds 5 shells of potent ammo I consider it to have 5 servings. So better then the handgun and not too far off the AR inside of 15 yards. The ability to shoot slugs increases this distance but 15 yards inside a house/property is a pretty good distance.

Both of my shotguns deliver birdshot and buckshot to the same point of aim. Even slugs are no problem with the ghost rings. So I see no problem in practicing with field loads. I use reduced recoil buckshot and slugs so even the recoil is not that different.

 

[MohawkSlim]

It seems most folks who favor the AR are "clear the house" guys who will be sneaking around corners and engaging in firefights with multiple attackers. They'll be fast and stealthy but not ever have to physically engage someone because they'll Seal Team Six them with two to the chest and one to the head before the attacker gets a chance to even say a word. "He wuz in muh house. MUH HOUSE!!!" They'll shoot the guys all 30 times to make sure they're good and dead before the police arrive to scoop up the stacked bodies.

The shotgunners are those who have considered they may have to "guard" a prisoner they didn't shoot for 45 minutes until police arrive.

 

[BE Mike]

My primary HD guns are handguns. They are easier to bring to force and easy to secure next to the bed, as well as, and around the house. Having said that, I have a lot of trigger time with a pump shotgun and prefer it as a secondary HD gun over the AR-15, although I am comfortable with the AR-15 platform. As for versatility, if I could only have one handgun and one long gun, I'd choose a 4" revolver chambered in .357 mag. and a 12 ga. pump shotgun.

 

[Tombs]

Good post Tombs but I disagree with a couple small points. A single good hit from 00 buck is devastating compared to 5.56 ball. Every carbine course I have attended had us deliver 3 or more shots center mass with the 5.56. We even practiced failure drills. Plenty of examples with bad guys fighting after getting hit with multiple carbine rounds. Shotguns are not mythical but 9 pellets of 00 buck delivered to a centralized area does a lot to overwhelm the brain and send a person into shock. No guarantee but the shotgun is the single most powerful weapon the everyday Joe can shoulder. 00 is the standard 12 gauge load but even 1 buck or #3/4 out of a 20 gauge is quite powerful.

I look at self defense guns as being able to deliver servings. My 1911 has two servings, Glock 19 3 servings, an AR 6 to 10 servings. Considering my shotgun holds 5 shells of potent ammo I consider it to have 5 servings. So better then the handgun and not too far off the AR inside of 15 yards. The ability to shoot slugs increases this distance but 15 yards inside a house/property is a pretty good distance.

Both of my shotguns deliver birdshot and buckshot to the same point of aim. Even slugs are no problem with the ghost rings. So I see no problem in practicing with field loads. I use reduced recoil buckshot and slugs so even the recoil is not that different.

I have never had a shotgun shoot REMOTELY as tight of a pattern with buckshot as with birdshot. My saiga 12 with a full choke will keep most of the pellets on a chest sized target at 50 yards with birdshot, but buckshot is starting to get pretty wide after about 30 yards.

As far as mythical "stopping" power goes, a 5.56 at least M193 will deliver upwards of 900ftlbs of energy into the chest cavity if it's within range to still fragment, I don't see someone walking away from that who would have gone down to a load of 00 buck.

Then again people have continued to fight after having a 12 gauge deer slug fragment in their chest, and that is about the top end of energy delivery from small arms. Once you get into rifles and shotguns, arguing over the ability to put someone down gets pretty moot as they're all infinitely more capable than any service-caliber handgun.

M193 5.56:
[video=youtube;I-Fox7v3W7E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Fox7v3W7E[/video]

12 gauge 3" magnum 00 buckshot:
[video=youtube;LNBFS3HWoIU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNBFS3HWoIU[/video]

And lets throw in a slug for good measure:
[video=youtube;ftrCtOyLrmU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftrCtOyLrmU[/video]

Compare the amount of damage done to the recoil, weapon size, and ease of use. I just don't see a 12 gauge being as practical of an option.

I would include images of wounds inflicted by M193, but that would be a little too graphic for these forums. I'm sure you can look it up on google. Lets just put it this way, it does a lot more than making a hole and causes ridiculous amounts of peripheral wounding. Most of the failures and inadequacy you hear about comes from people being shot at distances outside of its fragmentation range.

 

[M67]

It seems most folks who favor the AR are "clear the house" guys who will be sneaking around corners and engaging in firefights with multiple attackers. They'll be fast and stealthy but not ever have to physically engage someone because they'll Seal Team Six them with two to the chest and one to the head before the attacker gets a chance to even say a word. "He wuz in muh house. MUH HOUSE!!!" They'll shoot the guys all 30 times to make sure they're good and dead before the police arrive to scoop up the stacked bodies.

The shotgunners are those who have considered they may have to "guard" a prisoner they didn't shoot for 45 minutes until police arrive.

Why would I guard a prisoner? If they're in my house, I'm not going to sit them down and ask if they want a cup of tea or a foot rub and have them potentially sue me for traumatizing them or coming back for revenge. They entered into the home with bad intentions, theft, murder, rape, violence, or a combination of those. Why would I be courteous to them?

I have a shotgun, but between the ARs and the pistols, for home defense, my Saiga 12 wouldn't be and won't be my first choice

 

[cedartop]

.

As far as mythical "stopping" power goes, a 5.56 at least M193 will deliver upwards of 900ftlbs of energy into the chest cavity if it's within range to still fragment, I don't see someone walking away from that who would have gone down to a load of 00 buck.

Then again people have continued to fight after having a 12 gauge deer slug fragment in their chest, and that is about the top end of energy delivery from small arms. Once you get into rifles and shotguns, arguing over the ability to put someone down gets pretty moot as they're all infinitely more capable than any service-caliber handgun.

..

I don't know your level of experience. You may have shot more people in combat than Audie Murphy. If so I defer to your expertise. All of the SF guys I have trained with or listened to, guys who did a LOT of fighting in the GWOT say that after a while they pretty much went with 3-5 rounds per person as being the normal serving of 5.56. That many shots out of a 12 are seldom, if ever needed. This is regardless of what gelatin shows.

 

[Opie]

The gun rag cycle.

You are young so you are unaware of how the gun rags influence purchasing habits.

While movies are the primary driver of gun purchases, gun rag articles are a close second. The cycle is 8 to 10 years.

Shotguns will be hot again soon.

Might want to add the political cycle to that list. After the election we may be limited to 2 round magazines in our semi auto assault weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't have to install bird plugs in our sporting only 870's by federal law. Once we are down to 2 rounds the over/under will be king again!

 

[rhino]

I don't know your level of experience. You may have shot more people in combat than Audie Murphy. If so I defer to your expertise. All of the SF guys I have trained with or listened to, guys who did a LOT of fighting in the GWOT say that after a while they pretty much went with 3-5 rounds per person as being the normal serving of 5.56. That many shots out of a 12 are seldom, if ever needed. This is regardless of what gelatin shows.

For what it's worth, might that also be related to the fact that sending 3-5 rounds with a rifle is easy and quick and you have plenty of capacity to do it, whereas most 12 ga shotguns you'd exhaust at least a third of your ammo supply preceding a slow reload if you fired 3 rounds on a single threat?

If all else were equal and you needed to stop a threat as quickly as possible, 3-5 rounds of 00 buckshot would do a better job than one.