Why the decline in SHTF/HD shotguns?

[YoungMilsurpGuy]

Well I cant sleep and I was wondering why it seems the 12 gauge shotgun for SHTF preps and HD is on the decline?

I understand alot of ex military and competitive guys have huge amounts of time on the AR and it makes sense,but for my relatively college age and less experiance (and generally close to broke) buddies, I have been steering them towards good old12 gauge pumps like a maverick 88 or the Chinese 870 clone.

I understand also that if your running as part of a team, especially with LE or mil/ex mil guys and have a bunch of spare parts and ammo and expertise with the platform the AR again might be a better choice, but I submit for the average joe just looking for a gun, the cheap defensive/general purpose shotgun might be a better choice.

I see it, for a home defense scenario, you have several benefits, namely
-Greater terminal effect (3 inch buckshot is pretty gnarly)
-Damned near close to 100% reliability(a big plus especially if your spending under $300 or building a budget AR)
-Range is not as much a factor
-Exceptionally cheap
-Birdshot for practice and to shoot clays with can be had for the same price or less as brass cased .223/5.56 or .40

And for a survival scenario
-ammo can be loaded very easily with almost no tools and improvised propellants. I have loaded shotgun shells with a nail, block of wood, dowel, BBs and ground up sparklers
-can be used for small game and bird hunting
-most realistic SHTF engagements will be up close and personal, house to house and face to face, not shooting suppressive fire at UN troops or ISIS on a ridgeline 400 yards away.
-The only real spare parts you need to keep it running is a bore snake, maybe a spare extractor, and some motor oil to use as lube.

 

[Tomahawkman]

2 words

OVER PENETRATION.

.556 or .223 is less likely to have as devastating effects after going through 2x4s and drywall than some 00 buck.
If I've got a house full of people and a bad guy in between Id much rather be using my AR than my 870. Not to mention I've got more ammo. I believe the decline is due to this reason that's why I switched anyway.

Id be interested to know if anyone has different reasoning though.

All this said while the 870 is in the safe its still loaded up with 00 buck ready to go if needed.


Edit

Also adding that while yes you got the stopping power with some 00 buck what are your realistic follow up shots going to look like? Because Unless you put some serious time in shooting and training with a pump action shotgun that follow up shot may not be so easy, and under stress your first shot might not be on target. (because we all know shotguns don't shoot like they do in the movies) and you do need to make proper shot placement. or your not hitting that threat.

With and AR and some training In the same time it could take to put 2 rounds on target with a shotgun you can put 5 or 6 rounds on target.. In my mind the goal here is how many combat effective hits can you get on target in the least amount of time. With this in mind Im going with AR-15 all day long.

 

[Woobie]

You're right about a lot of things. I might point out that the 100% reliability of a pump shotgun is completely dependent upon the shooter operating the pump correctly 100% of the time. In practice, this can mean the pump is less reliable than the AR. But if you practice until you can't get it wrong, that can be overcome.

Another reason some people are moving to AR's is penetration concerns. The 5.56 bullet doesn't go nearly as far after passing through a wall as 00 Buck.

 

[VERT]

Ask me again in August because right now I have more time on the AR. The AR is very easy to shoot and work with around vehicles and such. It gives a person the ability to engage targets between 0 - 250 yards with ease. But something I was told by a professional that I hold in high regard, "People shot with shotguns stay shot."

On a budget there is nothing I couldn't do with an 870 or mossy 500 with a coupe barrels, a ruger 10/22 or Marlin 60/795, and a good medium sized 9mm like a Glock 19, PPQ (or similar)

 

[LtScott14]

I like shotguns for the exact reason OP listed. I have had training for the S/G, and the AR-15, and for HD, and Hunting is still legal, and preferred. I have also qualified on Rem 700/ 30-06, and MP5(9mm). Both very effective in their area.
Had a Jones for an AR a few years back, and found 3 shotguns to add to my safe. I settled for a Moss 500, 18.5 in bbl, Knox stock, railed forearm for light, and other accessories.
Everybody needs a couple of each. May look into another AR.....

 

[johntheplinker]

Another couple of areas the AR beats the shotgun in are capacity and reloads. Standard 30 rd mag in the AR vs. 8-10 max, 5-6 standard in a tube mag shotgun. Push button, yank out empty mag then slap in a full one vs. take one shell and push into mag, repeat until full.

 

[romad7]

Having a silencer on an SBR is a huge benefit over a shotgun. I do have a shotgun that I've trained with also.

 

[Expat]

Because the girly men of America that we have become get PTSD from just shooting an AR, can you imagine the pain of a 12 g shooting buckshot or slugs... yikes. Yep, men today just can't handle a shotgun any more. That is a weapon for past Americans (or old ones).

 

[TheDude]

Because the girly men of America that we have become get PTSD from just shooting an AR, can you imagine the pain of a 12 g shooting buckshot or slugs... yikes. Yep, men today just can't handle a shotgun any more. That is a weapon for past Americans (or old ones).

Wow, i cant believe you said that. Im sure you didnt mean it like that?

 

[TheDude]

Anyways, if anyone wanting a quality combat shotgun...surplus 870s & 1187s are hitting gunshops all over. Most are very solid guns.

 

[Fordtough25]

I love shotguns!! My hd weapon is a 12 gauge and has been for years, currently a remmy 11-87 police. Heck I use 12 gauges to trim my trees!

 

[Beowulf]

Interestingly enough, according to this test, both the 5.56 (including frangible and softpoint rounds) as well as the 00 buck will go through at least 4 drywall walls without stopping.

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - The Box O' Truth

So in terms of over penetration, I'm not sure really anything is "safe". They also tried multiple common defensive pistol rounds (all went through) and .30 Carbine, which also went through all 4. The only thing that didn't was birdshot.

Update: Here's one of the previous tests where they use insulated walls. Results are pretty similar, though the 5.56 tumbles all over the place.

The Box O' Truth #12 - Insulated Walls - The Box O' Truth

 

[chezuki]

After taking both a defensive shotgun and defensive carbine class, for me the choice was clear. I run the carbine much better.

 

[pudly]

Wow, i cant believe you said that. Im sure you didnt mean it like that?

That is intended as humor. You must have missed the last week or so about this dufus:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry-issues-self-defense/415526-what-like-fire-ar-15-%92s-horrifying-menacing-very-very-loud.html

 

[Spear Dane]

I have a KSG filled with 4 buck with Aimkon tactical foregrip/flashlight and Holosun always on red dot. Also have a Catamount Lynxx. It is of Turkish descent and is a good shotgun.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

In reference to shtf, I enjoy shotguns but for me they require more physical effort to use and after about 20-30 12ga rounds my shoulder is just about done. Running an AR on the other hand, takes very little effort and recoil isn't much of a factor. I've never used a "tactical" shotgun but the ones I have fired seem like they weigh quite a bit more than AR's do.

 

[Wolfhound]

I like both the shotgun and AR. But, we live in the country and get late night visits from Coyotes. I keep a Mossberg pump with #4 buck by the bed because I am usually still a little groggy when I go out to deal with them. We have outside animals and seems we are visited at least twice a month.


My AR's are there to keep the King of England out of my face.

 

[cosermann]

Have both and have trained on both. Not saying one is better than the other for all situations, but here are a few other factors to consider.

Recoil - lower recoil of the carbine = greater acceptance by teams that include smaller framed individuals (women, teens, etc.).

Ammunition - 5.56 ammo is smaller and lighter = capability for higher round load outs, and ability to store/stock more in a smaller space.

Range/trajectory - 12 ga has a shorter effective range than the 5.56. (U.S. mil considers the max effective range of the joint service combat shotgun to be about 50 m with 00 buck, and 100+ with slugs if I recall correctly. 5.56 has a maximum point blank range of about 225 yards and a max effective range of about 450 m ish, although it falls off significantly after 300 m. For civilian purposes, we might consider the max range to be a bit shorter as the mil looks at these things "differently" than the law enforcement or civilian communities).

 

[MCgrease08]

I think it's partly due to how both of those guns are perceived.

Most guys of my generation and younger think using a shotgun looks like this:

They use an AR because they would rather look like this:

 

[Sniper 79]

My shoty has not been warm in years. AR all the way for me. Holds a ton of rounds, compact, virtually no recoil. The list goes on and on.

Just picked up a flat of shot shells so I can at least blow the cob webs out of it. Good to keep a shot shooter around I guess.