Why all the hate on .40

[BehindBlueI's]

What is your take on this article BBI?

Stopping Power, From a Doctor's Point of View - The Truth About Guns

I’m not sure what would happen if there were no more internet discussions about “stopping power” as applied to handguns. What would we talk about? I am sure that it would be a better world, and there would be lots more available bandwidth.

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

I skimmed it. I agree shot placement is king and stopping power is bull. But a lot of what he says "we don't know" is more properly "he doesn't know". I don't know what kind of doctor he is and don't care, but there's no shortage of real world gunshots to compare to ballistic testing analogues, and "we" know pretty well which ones are directly comparable to real world results and which aren't. "We" know pretty well which rounds cause remote damage and which don't. That's one reason cartridges that are on major contracts tend to get more development and why bullet development hasn't been equal across the board. None of the big players are going to put the work in to, say .44 Special, because why bother for the number of people interested. Nothing wrong with the cartridge or the concept, it's just not something any significant number of people who buy a significant amount of ammunition care about.

 

[Brad69]

BBI,
You need to instruct a few classes a year like the old days.

Much experience between your ears.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI,
You need to instruct a few classes a year like the old days.

Much experience between your ears.

I appreciate it, but I was reluctant to teach then. I tried to just give Coach my info and let him present it, but he talked me in to being part of it both for the credibility and the ability to answer questions. I have zero desire to return to instructing. I present what I think I have of relevance online and people can take it or leave it, but at least it's free and they can do so at their leisure.

 

[Armymen3002]

I think the majority of the problem came from round count in the police and fbi side of things when they ran it. There were far too many shootings where guys simply ran out of ammo, or shot someone several times and they weren’t vital hits and they kept coming.

I prefer more rounds total vs because of the bullet. Not saying you’ll see me carrying 380 or 22..But 9 allows me 17, up to 21 in a single mag and easily putting another one in my side car holster. Duty guys can multiply that up to 3-4 times.

 

[Peacekeeper3073]

I think the majority of the problem came from round count in the police and fbi side of things when they ran it. There were far too many shootings where guys simply ran out of ammo, or shot someone several times and they weren’t vital hits and they kept coming.

I prefer more rounds total vs because of the bullet. Not saying you’ll see me carrying 380 or 22..But 9 allows me 17, up to 21 in a single mag and easily putting another one in my side car holster. Duty guys can multiply that up to 3-4 times.

Not a lot of difference in most pistol capacity between 9mm and 40. Only two rounds more in Glock 9's vs 40 in standard mags which the FBI use.
G22-15
G17-17
G23-13
G19-15

Training and shot placement are #1.

 

[Armymen3002]

H

Not a lot of difference in most pistol capacity between 9mm and 40. Only two rounds more in Glock 9's vs 40 in standard mags which the FBI use.
G22-15
G17-17
G23-13
G19-15

Training and shot placement are #1.

Hey you never know, two could save your life lol

 

[breakingcontact]

It made sense at the time.

Enjoy it if you like it.

People (on whichever side) love to justify and defend their purchases.

If you want a 16 gauge or 28 gauge home defense gun...who cares?

 

[Peacekeeper3073]

It made sense at the time.

Enjoy it if you like it.

People (on whichever side) love to justify and defend their purchases.

If you want a 16 gauge or 28 gauge home defense gun...who cares?

Exactly. I shot about as much 40 as I did 9 last year just to conserve some ammo and to keep up practice with 40 if 9 dries up again this year. A lot of talk of big price increases. Both are good calibers and will get the job done.

 

[profjeremy]

When you get to high velocity rifle rounds that can stretch tissue fast and far enough that remote wounding does occur, then energy numbers become more relevant. None of this is new or controversial information, it's been pretty well known for at least 40 years and likely significantly longer in a less formal way.

I don’t mean to take us too far off topic, as I’m firmly in the camp of not wanting to be shot by 9mm, 40 S&W or any other popular handgun round. I believe they will all be effective. However, you’re obviously very knowledgeable and this remote wounding concept is interesting to me when it involves high velocity pistol rounds. That’s one of the common arguments I see in favor of 5.7x28, in particular. I know I have some 10mm rounds that end up in the 1800-1900 fps range, depending on which gun I use.

My question is, in your experience have you seen that some of the high velocity pistol rounds do indeed cause the remote wounding that you’re referencing? I’ve seen 2000 fps thrown out there as a rough estimate of when that happens, but 1900 fps is very close to that.

 

[racegunz]

Love the .40 myself can load up a 180 gr hollow point at around 1400 fps in a fully supported chamber (2011) can’t do that with a 9mm. 10mm even better except the cost. The main reason the uspsa limited guns were all .40 was because of the cheap brass coming from the leo crowd, and major scoring of course. Sad to see it on the decline but .38 super was a great round and it ran out of its second wind too. Things change, money rules.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Love the .40 myself can load up a 180 gr hollow point at around 1400 fps in a fully supported chamber (2011) can’t do that with a 9mm. 10mm even better except the cost. The main reason the uspsa limited guns were all .40 was because of the cheap brass coming from the leo crowd, and major scoring of course. Sad to see it on the decline but .38 super was a great round and it ran out of its second wind too. Things change, money rules.

While this load may work for you INGO be aware that one may question the reasoning and safety of a 180 GR 1400 FPS load in a 40 S&W.

Remember, just because a chamber/gun may take a few of these, catastrophic failure is unpredictable.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don’t mean to take us too far off topic, as I’m firmly in the camp of not wanting to be shot by 9mm, 40 S&W or any other popular handgun round. I believe they will all be effective. However, you’re obviously very knowledgeable and this remote wounding concept is interesting to me when it involves high velocity pistol rounds. That’s one of the common arguments I see in favor of 5.7x28, in particular. I know I have some 10mm rounds that end up in the 1800-1900 fps range, depending on which gun I use.

My question is, in your experience have you seen that some of the high velocity pistol rounds do indeed cause the remote wounding that you’re referencing? I’ve seen 2000 fps thrown out there as a rough estimate of when that happens, but 1900 fps is very close to that.

FPS is part of the equation. You'll see a lot of difference in a 5.56 that didn't upset vs one that did, for example, even at the same fps. What you're looking for is enough pressure applied to tissue to overcome it's elastic limit. Pinch your skin on the back of your hand a pull it upward. Now let it go. You've applied energy to that tissue and deformed it, but didn't overcome the elasticity so it snapped back into place when you stopped applying energy. That's what you have to overcome to cause tissue damage that the bullet didn't actually touch, or remote wounding.

5.7 has not been causing remote wounding in most tissues. Several face shooting teams tried it and found it took more rounds on target vs 5.56 for the same result of 'don't do that' on bad guys. I don't know of any results for high velocity 10mm. I would *guess* that given the weight and fps, if it's expanding or tumbling, it would likely cause some remote wounding but understand that's a guess. How significant that is would not be something I would feel comfortable offering an opinion on, other than to say it's going to vary depending on what tissue is struck. Hollow organs don't react the same as solid organs, etc.

I know some studies have hypothesized that even fairly low mass projectiles hitting the 2500-ish fps can disrupt tissue even beyond the temporary stretch due to, to simplify it a bit, tissue being driven in to other tissue hard enough to hurt both. I think this is still somewhat controversial, though, and no consensus exists on the details.

 

[profjeremy]

FPS is part of the equation. You'll see a lot of difference in a 5.56 that didn't upset vs one that did, for example, even at the same fps. What you're looking for is enough pressure applied to tissue to overcome it's elastic limit. Pinch your skin on the back of your hand a pull it upward. Now let it go. You've applied energy to that tissue and deformed it, but didn't overcome the elasticity so it snapped back into place when you stopped applying energy. That's what you have to overcome to cause tissue damage that the bullet didn't actually touch, or remote wounding.

5.7 has not been causing remote wounding in most tissues. Several face shooting teams tried it and found it took more rounds on target vs 5.56 for the same result of 'don't do that' on bad guys. I don't know of any results for high velocity 10mm. I would *guess* that given the weight and fps, if it's expanding or tumbling, it would likely cause some remote wounding but understand that's a guess. How significant that is would not be something I would feel comfortable offering an opinion on, other than to say it's going to vary depending on what tissue is struck. Hollow organs don't react the same as solid organs, etc.

I know some studies have hypothesized that even fairly low mass projectiles hitting the 2500-ish fps can disrupt tissue even beyond the temporary stretch due to, to simplify it a bit, tissue being driven in to other tissue hard enough to hurt both. I think this is still somewhat controversial, though, and no consensus exists on the details.

Definitely appreciate your thoughts! It’s something I’ve been curious about, ever since picking up a few boxes of the speedy 10mms.

I’m sure there wouldn’t be a very large data set for high velocity pistol rounds, since they’re fairly boutique as compared to rifle rounds or more commonly used (and slower) pistol rounds. In any case, thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Expat]

I got to see a good example of what the OP was posting about today. USCCA posted this picture on FB. OMG, the 9mil people had an absolute conniption. just showing a 40 in a picture is apparently unthinkable.

 

[Route 45]

I got to see a good example of what the OP was posting about today. USCCA posted this picture on FB. OMG, the 9mil people had an absolute conniption. just showing a 40 in a picture is apparently unthinkable.

Size insecurity - Not just for the Dr. Ruth show anymore.

 

[racegunz]

While this load may work for you INGO be aware that one may question the reasoning and safety of a 180 GR 1400 FPS load in a 40 S&W.

Remember, just because a chamber/gun may take a few of these, catastrophic failure is unpredictable.

For sure you can’t run that in a normal factory .40 I should have made that more clear.

 

[BigMoose]

Here is an example of how depressed the 40 S&W market is. This gun in 9mm is $489 all day. In 40? Who wants that.. price it just about the high points.

 

[Peacekeeper3073]

View attachment 328710

Here is an example of how depressed the 40 S&W market is. This gun in 9mm is $489 all day. In 40? Who wants that.. price it just about the high points.

Glock 40 police trade in prices are crazy low too.

 

[BigMoose]

Glock 40 police trade in prices are crazy low too.

Market is flooded with a dead caliber no one wants.

 

[88E30M50]

Market is flooded with a dead caliber no one wants.

It's just flooded. Nothing more than that.