We'd like the 2nd too you know.

[bertenshaw]

I was asked by some members here if there was any group or organisation that is trying to further the freedom to bear arms in the UK. Here is our only example (other than the UKIP political party)
We enjoy support from some Ladies and Gentlemen cousins from accross the pond 8>)

Arm Britain.com

there is a forum too 8>) See you there

 

[MTC]

RKBA for the UK?

That's a pretty tall order there, Berten. Might have to call in the INGO Mods for this one.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcFA98dvmmA&feature=related]YouTube - Mission: Impossible Opening Montage 2[/ame]

 

[E5RANGER375]

I was asked by some members here if there was any group or organisation that is trying to further the freedom to bear arms in the UK. Here is our only example (other than the UKIP political party)
We enjoy support from some Ladies and Gentlemen cousins from accross the pond 8>)

Arm Britain.com

there is a forum too 8>) See you there

the brits should have a tea party. we had an awesome one in boston if they need any ideas. thats the only way your getting your guns back brits..

 

[cosermann]

bertenshaw,

How aware, would you say, folks are over there about how gun control almost cost Britain its sovereignty during WWII?

"Those were dark days when the free nations of the world expected nothing but defeat by our enemies. On May 25, 1940, the British army had been beaten at a place on the French coast called Dunkirk. In a heroic evacuation - carried out in no small part by private citizens in small private boats - the men of the British army escaped. But they left virtually all of their small arms behind. Once back in England, soldiers had to drill with sticks."

Had Hitler's Operation Sea Lion been carried out successfully, the homeland would have been virtually defenseless. The British were literally begging for small arms from civilians and sportsmen in the U.S. and there was a program for people to gift their guns and send them to the British with the blessing of both our respective governments. Thousands answered the call, and sent their own personal firearms to help the effort. This was before the whole Lend Lease business got rolling.

What do they say about those who forget history?

See article on p32, 41 in following 1959 issue of Guns Magazine, "Guns in our Bundles or Britain":

http://jeffersonian.name/g1959/G1259.pdf

(My dad told me about this years ago, but it takes a bit of research to find it mentioned anywhere.)

 

[bertenshaw]

I would like to give "rep" to cosermann. Nice reply and link .

My grandfather was in the RN during WWII. He's still with us and pretty healthy too. He doesn't tell us anything about his service, he was on the landing crafts.
What he does say is "we thought at first Churchill had signed the countries death warrant taking on the Germans, we had absolutely nothing to fight them with" he says it was a very worrying time indeed.
The ordinary working people of the UK had a very basic standard of living untill the 1950's. Some might not agree with me there, but I've heard it from the horses mouth, so to speak.

There is an old comedy series called "Dads Army". The show was about what we called 'The Home Guard'. It indeed shows how they had to arm themselves with sticks and other stuff because we were very short of firearms.. The show used the fact as a "funny", but it was true.

here you go
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHgUraCpjWk&feature=related"]YouTube - Dad's army weapons inspection[/ame]

this funny too
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuple20I2vs&feature=related"]YouTube - Dad's Army - The Bullet Is Not For Firing[/ame]


I don't know if this series was ever aired in the US, but expect a few of you will become addicted. It was a really great comedy show.

 

[MrSmitty]

I've heard that the Brits are trying to ban knives too??

 

[bertenshaw]

There is a problem in the UK of young thugs (often from certain "communities"!) in the larger cities stabbing and shooting one and other. Sometimes the victims are from outside these gangs. The "think of the children" brigade scream very loudly for some impossible ban(s). Normal people are being criminalized for carrying a lock-knife for purely utility purpose as our laws are easily misunderstood.
Thankfully, our government know our laws are quite strict enough thank you!
UK knife law
You can carry a non-locking sub 3 inch bladed folding knife without any particular reason. You can carry it just about anywhere.
You cannot carry ANYTHING with the intent of using it as a weapon (even for defending yourself). If you told a policeman that was your reason for having an object, you are going to get arrested and you have admitted the offence.
You can carry any knife if you have a valid reason or need to have one with you
EG for work, camping, fishing or hunting.
You can also carry a knife if it is part of your religion. A sikh can carry their Kirpan.
Some knives are illegal to have though. Flick-knives, butterfly knives, gravity knives, push daggers and large fake curved swords are normaly illegal to buy,sell or own.
There are exceptions though.

 

[theweakerbrother]

Ask Egypt if they have any advice. You could also move here.

 

[buckstopshere]

Somebody should put a gun to their heads and force them to go to the dentist.

All nations should have the 2A. There's a whole group of people gearing up to take over the world, starting in the middle east. All citizens should have a right to defend themselves and prepare for the worst case scenario.

 

[MTC]

Bertenshaw,

Without proper knowledge of the political terrain and current statutes, it's difficult to offer more than moral support instead of something useful and effective. Was going to ask if you had something similar to a Waffenbesitzkarte system used by some on the Continent.

Is this information accurate? If so, it reads more like what some here would call a nationwide discretionary "may issue" system (shotgun and rifle only) with precertification required, such permission/authorization being difficult, if not impossible, to get. Unless of course one is politically well-connected.

Would that be an accurate representation of your situation?

(ETA: Nm - still checking. Found 'Section 5'.)

 

[bertenshaw]

Somebody should put a gun to their heads and force them to go to the dentist.

We do. We just preffer real teeth to caps

 

[bertenshaw]

Is this information accurate?

such permission/authorization being difficult, if not impossible, to get. Unless of course one is politically well-connected.

Would that be an accurate representation of your situation?

(ETA: Nm - still checking. Found 'Section 5'.)

Hi, the info does look accurate.
If you appear to be sane, aren't connected to villians and don't have a criminal record it's unlikely you would be denied a certificate.
But, this certificate is for purely 'sporting' purposes, there is no certificate for a normal civilian to hold defensive arms. We do hear rumours that some people have firearms issued by the State !
Section 5 is the prohibited stuff (pistols etc)

 

[MTC]

But, this certificate is for purely 'sporting' purposes, there is no certificate for a normal civilian to hold defensive arms.
Section 5 is the prohibited stuff (pistols etc)

Yes, of course. Ye olde 'sporting purposes' rationale, no doubt as determined by "the authorities", with the requirement to prove a "need". Not only codified here in the GCA '68 (limited in scope for now), but exemplified in the utterances of morons on this side of the pond, many of whom happen to own guns, such as -
"Whad'ya need with a ..."
"Why do you need a ..."
"What're ya gonna hunt with a ..."
"I don't see what anyone needs with a ..."
<insert item(s) they want banned or restricted>

"Only the police and military should have ____."
"Blood in the streets!"
"OMG! How are we gonna keep guns out of ____ hands?!"
"Well, I don't see what the big deal is. If it keeps ___ from getting guns."

If you will indulge me for a moment, I post these things not to shoot the messenger or make light of your predicament, but to help some of our dear readers to understand why advocacy of gun control schemes - background checks/waiting periods, licensing, registration, fingerprints, photos, CLEO sign-off, requirement to list or show need, etc. - makes some of us want to stomp a mudhole in the arse of those who support them.

Getting back to the UK, it seems that dealer site was too general. Not to say he was being untruthful, but key points were left out.
Gun Law in the UK goes into more detail. So it looks like even if you 'qualified' for that type of Waffenbesitzkarte (FAC) it would be to no avail, since most items useful for self-defense are banned under section 5, and even if that were not the case, one would not be able to carry it about, or even use it on one's own property since self-defense is not recognised as a right. Furthermore, one can't even purchase the conditionally granted privilege, whether bearing or owning, as we can here with our LTCH (state level) or Form 4 (federal level) respectively.

If I may speculate on the thread topic, even if after herculean effort you were able to get a RKBA provision added to your equivalent of the Constitution or lesser statutes, it will be of little value if that Right is not recognised and honoured as a Right. In other words, those who view the right to keep and bear arms with an eye toward infringement will do just as they have here, and redefine the terms in order to rationalise a permit/license/registration scheme, all while claiming with a straight face that you still have a right.

Given the political, legal, social, and economic realities there, and after all you've endured so far, some sort of provisional "shall issue" type licensing/permit system with the modern small arms prohibition repealed might seem a blessing, and in any case might be the most that is politically achievable.

 

[bertenshaw]

Under British law you can defend yourself, but, the law is that you can only use reasonable force. If you were to be attacked by someone unarmed, you couldn't retaliate with a weapon. You could in theory use a firearm to defend yourself if you were being attacked by someone with a weapon likely to result in you been killed, but a court would decide your fate in every case.

I doubt the law will change much in the UK as I think people who see the reasoning and value of the 'Right to Keep and Bear Arms' are, at the moment, in a very small minority. We do see people's outrage when someone defending themselves or their property ends up on the wrong end of the law, but, the government seems to leave the dubious law alone...! I sometimes wonder if the 'State' is ensuring it's monopoly on defending it's subjects (which I don't think they can actualy do)..... and the "State" doesn't mind if a few people are treated wrongly.

One strange thing about British firearms law on the subject of "shall issue".
We have two quite different licenses for guns here. The first is 'section 1 firearms certificate', this covers everything that isn't prohibited EG rifles, muzzle loading pistol..etc. You have to prove you are suitable as well as the other requirements
Then there is the 'Shotgun Certificate'. If the authorities don't want to issue you with this certificate THEY must prove your unsuitable !! This is very odd. People say it's because this is the traditional firearm of the "Landed Gentry" (the rich)???

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Like your homegrown sharia law advocates, your asinine laws against reasonable force for self-defense are going to lead to your conquest, if you don't get your citizens to "wise-up" and change things over there. I understand from a friend in the Poole area on the southern coast, that home invasions have skyrocketed since the ban on hand guns was put in place. Seems a robber or a tough doesn't have to worry about his victim having an "equalizer" to stop him - and heaven help the lad who uses "too much" force to subdue his attacker! I love you folks, but you're getting what you deserve for being stoooopid (collectively).

 

[bertenshaw]

I agree. 8>)

 

[cosermann]

FWIW (not much I'm afraid), you have my moral support!

 

[bertenshaw]

Thanks gents.

 

[rambone]

You guys need a Declaration of Independence from your monarchy. You cannot be free citizens while you have to bow to royalty. Bertenshaw, welcome to the site and I look forward to having discussions with you. Keep preaching the about liberty and against that oppressive Police State that you guys have to live under. You have my support.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Look, I have no sympathy. You guys gave up your guns not once but twice. The first time you nearly lost everything to Germany and yet you still allowed yourselves to be disarmed a second time. Heck, you even willingly lined up and turned them in! That shyt won't fly here, sure we'll line up with them.......We know from experience that we need our guns, you should know all about that! While I wish you the best and hope you can regain your rights a little at a time, I still don't feel sorry for you. You know what it's going to take, you've seen it done, now are you willing to take the leap?