Weapon retention and/or grappling skills

[BehindBlueI's]

Indy homeowner says he fought off intruder, killed him with his own gun

INDIANAPOLIS — One man is dead following an attempted home invasion on Indy’s east side. Today the homeowner who killed the suspect spoke out about the shooting a short time after he was rele…

fox59.com

Who won and who lost had **** all to do with who had the best mastery of fundamentals. It came down to who could gain control of the gun in an entangled fight. How would you fare? I expect a lot of people will say something like 'muh super SA would prevent this from ever happening' instead of giving it the thought it deserves.

I talked to Coach when he was alive about doing a light grappling segment in the class we did together. He said nobody would sign up for a class dedicated to it and nobody would participate in a stand alone scenario in a broader class. Fighting was hard and wasn't fun. We didn't agree on everything, but I suspect he was right on this one.

 

[jsharmon7]

Raul Martinez has a class on it. Hill Country Combatives with Cliff Byerly also does a lot with it. I *think* the training world is coming around to it, but I think there are still a lot of people out there who would be hesitant. Putting on a helmet and fighting over a blue gun tends to expose people’s weaknesses.

 

[VERT]

Wow that sounds intense.

From a class standpoint I think there might be some people interested. Liability Insurance would have an absolute coronary.

If anybody out there is thinking about trying this with their buddies I would recommend cutting the trigger guard off the blue guns. Breaking or hyper extending your trigger finger is bad way to end the day (but a good day to start your off hand carry practice).

 

[foszoe]

I go back on forth on this. I definitely think it has value but I have never taken a hand to hand fighting class in my life. I would like to but living rurally has its disadvantages. It's 3 hours out of my day to take a one hour class.

Without that background, I am not sure what taking a 3 hour course once a year would really do for me.

And at my current life stage, I am getting fragile.

 

[MCgrease08]

I would take a class on this.

With my limited skill set I would likely have to work up to it though with some type of basics class first. I did Tae Kwon Do for a few years in a former life, but that's a whole different can of beans than a hands on grappling class at half to full speed.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Wow that sounds intense.

From a class standpoint I think there might be some people interested. Liability Insurance would have an absolute coronary.

If anybody out there is thinking about trying this with their buddies I would recommend cutting the trigger guard off the blue guns. Breaking or hyper extending your trigger finger is bad way to end the day (but a good day to start your off hand carry practice).

It can be done easily. Just look at skydiving operations. Their waiver is almost bulletproof. (It usually takes gross negligence AND an idiotic jury)

Two pages in a nutshell: "This is dangerous and you could die. Twice. You understand that you are taking your life in your own hands. You agree not to sue us, and if you do sue us, you agree to give us your winnings if you were to win. "

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Wow that sounds intense.

From a class standpoint I think there might be some people interested. Liability Insurance would have an absolute coronary.

If anybody out there is thinking about trying this with their buddies I would recommend cutting the trigger guard off the blue guns. Breaking or hyper extending your trigger finger is bad way to end the day (but a good day to start your off hand carry practice).

Yeah. I have no interest in instructing again and am not good enough in this arena to train anyone anyway. I'd just refer folks to Craig Douglas for weapon specific stuff and whoever their local BJJ and/or boxing guy and/or wrestling guy with a decent reputation is.

 

[Leadeye]

Being inside a room when something like a 357 magnum goes off close by is stunning on your senses. Maybe in the course of a struggle the adrenaline is running so hard you don't notice it, but that's got to count for something.

 

[foszoe]

Yeah. I have no interest in instructing again and am not good enough in this arena to train anyone anyway. I'd just refer folks to Craig Douglas for weapon specific stuff and whoever their local BJJ and/or boxing guy and/or wrestling guy with a decent reputation is.

thats too bad. One thing I miss Coach is 1 on 1 training sessions. I gave 1 on 1 training sessions with him to inlaws for Christmas. I enjoyed the class I took with you as an instructor and would do it again, schedule permitting. I need to find someone to fill that void in my life and training. He was a great guy, a great instructor, and a great confidence builder for me.

 

[bobzilla]

Yeah. I have no interest in instructing again and am not good enough in this arena to train anyone anyway. I'd just refer folks to Craig Douglas for weapon specific stuff and whoever their local BJJ and/or boxing guy and/or wrestling guy with a decent reputation is.

I’d take the class you taught about grappling/fighting while riding a flying death tube. Like take my money I’m in.

But in a serious note I have never had fighting skills and have spent most of my adult life trying to avoid it at all costs. Going to jail or dying seem pretty severe for most confrontations that just aren’t worth it to me.

 

[bobzilla]

Also that dude better hope he was renting and has another place to be. I don’t think he’s going to get much rest there with the dead thugs buddies out and about.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Also that dude better hope he was renting and has another place to be. I don’t think he’s going to get much rest there with the dead thugs buddies out and about.

I'm somewhat surprised he gave a media interview. I was thinking of some way to obliquely mention a grappling incident without going into specifics, but he put it in the public domain for everyone to critique...so here we are.

 

[cedartop]

It is hard to tell from the article, but it doesn't seem like it was real random?

It has been a few years but I do recall that getting firearms instructor insurance was much easier than getting any type of FOF insurance. As a matter of fact, the company would tell you it was specifically not for FOF. I am thinking a much higher rate of injuries.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It can be done easily. Just look at skydiving operations. Their waiver is almost bulletproof. (It usually takes gross negligence AND an idiotic jury)

Two pages in a nutshell: "This is dangerous and you could die. Twice. You understand that you are taking your life in your own hands. You agree not to sue us, and if you do sue us, you agree to give us your winnings if you were to win. "

Given the existence of commercial lessons for boxing, BJJ, wrestling, etc. there has to be someone offering a reasonable affordable option for punchy-kicky insurance. Or a lot of people are running a business naked.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We did retention/take aways this morning at the club. I understand that my martial arts club may be one of the few to incorporate firearms, shooting and using them with impact weapons, but this is because of the background of the instructor,

With my injury/ies not so fun but I did it because I know they more I do it in training the smaller chance that I will have to do it in real life.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Given the existence of commercial lessons for boxing, BJJ, wrestling, etc. there has to be someone offering a reasonable affordable option for punchy-kicky insurance. Or a lot of people are running a business naked.

Yes, there is, very reasonable too. We have an umbrella as well.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Wow that sounds intense.

From a class standpoint I think there might be some people interested. Liability Insurance would have an absolute coronary.

If anybody out there is thinking about trying this with their buddies I would recommend cutting the trigger guard off the blue guns. Breaking or hyper extending your trigger finger is bad way to end the day (but a good day to start your off hand carry practice).

We do it. Have waiver, insurance and umbrella. Use helmets and eye pro in disarms/retention.

We use blue guns without trigger guards--the TAK (both Glock and M17). When use 870s or M723 blue guns, don't put fingers inside.

 

[Jackson]

Indy homeowner says he fought off intruder, killed him with his own gun

INDIANAPOLIS — One man is dead following an attempted home invasion on Indy’s east side. Today the homeowner who killed the suspect spoke out about the shooting a short time after he was rele…

fox59.com

Who won and who lost had **** all to do with who had the best mastery of fundamentals. It came down to who could gain control of the gun in an entangled fight. How would you fare? I expect a lot of people will say something like 'muh super SA would prevent this from ever happening' instead of giving it the thought it deserves.

I talked to Coach when he was alive about doing a light grappling segment in the class we did together. He said nobody would sign up for a class dedicated to it and nobody would participate in a stand alone scenario in a broader class. Fighting was hard and wasn't fun. We didn't agree on everything, but I suspect he was right on this one.

An INGO member and BJJ student has attempted to host a class by a reputable instructor focusing on these things the past two years. Both years he failed to get enough interested students to fill the class. The class was advertising here on INGO and among the local Jiu Jitsu community. There wasn't enough interest. I have ideas about why but no data to support them.


There is a small community of people interested in the entangled gunfight problem who are also willing to put in the work. I would guess the Craig Douglas and Cecil Burch and Paul Sharp's of the world have a lot of the same students coming through their classes repeatedly.

 

[Jackson]

We did retention/take aways this morning at the club. I understand that my martial arts club may be one of the few to incorporate firearms, shooting and using them with impact weapons, but this is because of the background of the instructor,

With my injury/ies not so fun but I did it because I know they more I do it in training the smaller chance that I will have to do it in real life.

I think I recall that you're doing a style of Kung fu? Do your retention training sessions take the grappling-centric approach that Shivworks takes to the problem? I would be interested to see how you approach and build drills to deal with these problems

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I think I recall that you're doing a style of Kung fu? Do your retention training sessions take the grappling-centric approach that Shivworks takes to the problem? I would be interested to see how you approach and build drills to deal with these problems

Unfamiliar with Shivworks to answer but cannot see how grappling would not be involved in any retention/disarm.