University Police Powers

[CathyInBlue]

University rules can only go so far. It's essentially the same level of authority you have over your own property. You can set a rule that only Glocks will be tolerated. That's your right, but what authority do you have if you discover someone CCing a 1911? Do you have the authority to confiscate a guest's 1911 for the period of time you escort them to your property line? No. Hence, neither do the campus police. And under 35-47-11.1, they can claim no higher legal authority than university rules. Hence, "Seizure! No seizing!"

 

[KW730]

University rules can only go so far. It's essentially the same level of authority you have over your own property. You can set a rule that only Glocks will be tolerated. That's your right, but what authority do you have if you discover someone CCing a 1911? Do you have the authority to confiscate a guest's 1911 for the period of time you escort them to your property line? No. Hence, neither do the campus police. And under 35-47-11.1, they can claim no higher legal authority than university rules. Hence, "Seizure! No seizing!"

Thank you! I completely forgot to think about how preemption would play into this as well. If anyone wants to present some IC that contradicts the main sentiment in this thread I will certainly take it into consideration.

 

[wally05]

Thank you! I completely forgot to think about how preemption would play into this as well. If anyone wants to present some IC that contradicts the main sentiment in this thread I will certainly take it into consideration.

That's not how it works. You can talk with the county prosecutor. Your choices will most likely be 1. Leave the campus, or 2. Allow the items to be confiscated and be returned later. It's one or the other. It's not a permanent seizure.

 

[wally05]

This doesn't apply as far as I'm concerned because marijuana is illegal to possess in Indiana.

Even if this were the case, law enforcement officers are not allowed to confiscate legally owned property unless it is used for evidence of a crime. If the university outlawed water bottles and I was caught with one they wouldn't be able to seize it. The item doesn't matter, just that it is legally owned.

I'm still looking for a citation as to where they get the power to seize legally owned items from, unless you're saying IC 20-12-3.5-2 is it.

If this is the case, I agreed with you at first, but as others have pointed out it simply says they may enforce university rules and regulations. Very vague.

If you don't want to agree with me, that is fine. I wouldn't fight it based on comments on here. Talk to the county prosecutor or an attorney. I'm telling you, though, as I just stated above, you only have so many choices. You can either cooperate or be booted. Once again, if you agree to the terms of living on campus, there is usually a line regarding seizing of prohibited items, illegal or not. If you agree to it, you agree to it.

So, do you guys get passionate about phones confiscated at high schools when a student is distracting with it?

 

[wally05]

University rules can only go so far. It's essentially the same level of authority you have over your own property. You can set a rule that only Glocks will be tolerated. That's your right, but what authority do you have if you discover someone CCing a 1911? Do you have the authority to confiscate a guest's 1911 for the period of time you escort them to your property line? No. Hence, neither do the campus police. And under 35-47-11.1, they can claim no higher legal authority than university rules. Hence, "Seizure! No seizing!"

Nope, I'd escort them to the edge of campus, though. They wouldn't be allowed to stay if they wouldn't cooperate with the rules of the campus. It's their choice.

35-47-11.1 applies to a political subdivision which appears to be only public entities in nature... I'll have to take a look at that.

 

[Indy317]

This was my thinking before I found this code. The university PD was of no help and the assistant chief ended up being belligerent and yelling at me with a reply that was not so far off from they can do it because they want to. So now I'm trying to figure out where they have a legal right to seize things like this on my own.

I would really appreciate a lawyer's input on this.

Maybe I missed it, but what exactly happened?

Whatever the law says, sworn police officers are still legally bound by court rulings that deal with detainment, arrest, and search and seizure. Universities sometimes think they have some sort of special, extra powers when it comes to their own residence halls. I don't know of any court ruling that specifically dealt with university owned student housing, so as far as I know, they are no different than any other type of residential/housing unit.

Now, if guns are banned and one signs a contract letting RAs do health and safety inspections and the RA happens upon a firearm, I don't really see an issue with the police taking the firearm as personal property. Hell, municipal LEOs would likely do the same if they found a person's home broken into. Say someone kicks in a door to burglarize a home, a neighbor yells out and the person runs away. Neighbor calls cops who come and check the home to make sure it is clear. They find unsecured firearms in the home. Should they take them for safe keeping? What if they see what appears to be two diamond rings? There are some limits, as I can see the cops not wanting to secure every single electronic device, or two 50" TVs, etc.. However, so long as the LEOs are honest and not going to steal my stuff, I have no problem with them take a few rings and firearms and securing them in their property room till I can get to my home and fix my broken entry door.

Even if this were the case, law enforcement officers are not allowed to confiscate legally owned property unless it is used for evidence of a crime.

Funny, LEOs constantly get calls for found property such as watches, wallets, cell phones, etc.. They confiscate those items that usually have nothing to do with any underlying criminal act. If they OP thinks he/she has a case, then file a lawsuit. I doubt the lawsuit will do any good. I just feel this would fall under some sort of safekeeping seizure. I could be wrong, I guess we shall see.

35-47-11.1 applies to a political subdivision which appears to be only public entities in nature... I'll have to take a look at that.

And in that law, political subdivision is defined as:

IC 3-5-2-38 "Political subdivision"
Sec. 38. "Political subdivision" means a county, city, town, township, school corporation, public library, local housing authority, fire protection district, public transportation corporation, local building authority, local hospital authority or corporation, local airport authority, special service district, special taxing district, or other type of local governmental corporate entity.

The only thing universities might fall under is "other type of local governmental corporate entity." The question is what is meant by "local governmental?" Do they mean an actual local governing body, or do they mean local as in area, and governmental as in related to government (ie:Public funded university). I've posted a thread about this before, but people got hung up on the legality of carrying with a license. I was mostly trying to point out maybe under this law, the whole "leave or be arrested for trespass" was no longer an option for public universities.

 

[KW730]

I just stated above, you only have so many choices. You can either cooperate or be booted. Once again, if you agree to the terms of living on campus, there is usually a line regarding seizing of prohibited items, illegal or not. If you agree to it, you agree to it.

That makes more sense. Of course they can trespass/suspend/expel me if I refuse to comply.

Maybe I missed it, but what exactly happened?

More of a hypothetical situation although I did have a firearm seized awhile ago but wasn't too upset as everything turned out alright. I really am just curious, not trying to sue anyone.

Funny, LEOs constantly get calls for found property such as watches, wallets, cell phones, etc.. They confiscate those items that usually have nothing to do with any underlying criminal act. If they OP thinks he/she has a case, then file a lawsuit. I doubt the lawsuit will do any good. I just feel this would fall under some sort of safekeeping seizure. I could be wrong, I guess we shall see.

Do you know where I could find the provisions for safekeeping seizures? I feel that property found without a clear and present owner is different than when the owner is right in front of you.

And in that law, political subdivision is defined as:

IC 3-5-2-38 "Political subdivision"
Sec. 38. "Political subdivision" means a county, city, town, township, school corporation, public library, local housing authority, fire protection district, public transportation corporation, local building authority, local hospital authority or corporation, local airport authority, special service district, special taxing district, or other type of local governmental corporate entity.

The only thing universities might fall under is "other type of local governmental corporate entity."

Personally I don't believe a university falls under this at all or SB097 wouldn't be necessary.

 

[singlestacksig]

sounds like it is a rental / property issue.. you gave them permissiom to take things when you signed the lease, so they can do so when you are not there to say no..
if they came in while you are there to say no, then it might be a question, can they take such things by force?
and can you revoke the permission to take things , other than moving out?

 

[KW730]

sounds like it is a rental / property issue.. you gave them permissiom to take things when you signed the lease, so they can do so when you are not there to say no..
if they came in while you are there to say no, then it might be a question, can they take such things by force?
and can you revoke the permission to take things , other than moving out?

Nowhere in the lease does it say anything about seizures. There is an inspections clause that allows them to enter common areas to check for safety issues. That is all. I think it's been pretty much decided that they have no legal standing to confiscate property but will use threats of institutional judicial action to do as they please.

 

[CathyInBlue]

I never said that there would not be an escort to the property line, just that during such, there would not be a seizure of the interloper's legally held personal protection sidearm.

If the Uni Pole Lease can claim powers of arrest, then explain how they are not some form of government. They are either a form of government, or they are not. If they are not, then they have no powers of arrest outside of everyday citizen's arrest powers. If they are, they are either local or state. If they are local, they are preempted.

 

[inccwchris]

They don't have to have that power spelled out in IC code. In their function as a campus police officer they have the right to enforce private property ordinances and regulations just as an owner of the property or a property security officer would. As a campus officer, they are agents of the property as well. This means that as long as it is stated somewhere in campus policy that they can do something, than they can do it on the campus property as long as they are not enforcing criminal law. It would be the same thing as an IMPD officer taking beer from you at a party at his house when he specifically asked you not to bring beer. Did you break the law? No. Did you break the rules of his party? Yes.

Its because during activities like the room checks, they are acting as agents of the property, not police officers.

 

[KW730]

It would be the same thing as an IMPD officer taking beer from you at a party at his house when he specifically asked you not to bring beer.

But you still have the option to leave with your property, he has no right to deprive you of it. With that said, considering I signed a lease I have a right to be on the property. If they can't confiscate property (supposedly because it seems no one really knows), how does them escorting me off the property play into my legal right to be on the property? This is very confusing.

 

[Butros17]

Complete side bar, but are you living in the on campus dorm? If so which one? I was the project manager for the renovation of Clark Hall a few years back and wonder how it was received.

 

[92ThoStro]

University rules can only go so far. It's essentially the same level of authority you have over your own property. You can set a rule that only Glocks will be tolerated. That's your right, but what authority do you have if you discover someone CCing a 1911? Do you have the authority to confiscate a guest's 1911 for the period of time you escort them to your property line? No. Hence, neither do the campus police. And under 35-47-11.1, they can claim no higher legal authority than university rules. Hence, "Seizure! No seizing!"

This thread is about alcohol in a common area of campus housing, not about seizing someones firearm until they get to the property line. The OP had alcohol where it was prohibited. Campus police have the authority to enter the area without a warrant as university officials, which has already been stated. They seized the alcohol because it was a prohibited item, in accordance with their authority to enforce university policy. It was not a criminal act, it was just against university policy.
Do you propose they leave a sticky note on the beer saying "not allowed, please take it home?"
Wally, could the OP go to the campus police department, or schools administration building, depending on how things are done, and claim the alcohol, so he can get is personal property back?

 

[singlestacksig]

They don't have to have that power spelled out in IC code. In their function as a campus police officer they have the right to enforce private property ordinances and regulations just as an owner of the property or a property security officer would. As a campus officer, they are agents of the property as well. This means that as long as it is stated somewhere in campus policy that they can do something, than they can do it on the campus property as long as they are not enforcing criminal law. It would be the same thing as an IMPD officer taking beer from you at a party at his house when he specifically asked you not to bring beer. Did you break the law? No. Did you break the rules of his party? Yes.

Its because during activities like the room checks, they are acting as agents of the property, not police officers.

a landlord cannot take a renter property even if it was not allowed in the lease.. they can only go to court and ask for enforcement of the lease..

 

[KW730]

Complete side bar, but are you living in the on campus dorm? If so which one? I was the project manager for the renovation of Clark Hall a few years back and wonder how it was received.

Off campus apartment but Clark Hall is very nice!

This thread is about alcohol in a common area of campus housing, not about seizing someones firearm until they get to the property line. The OP had alcohol where it was prohibited. Campus police have the authority to enter the area without a warrant as university officials, which has already been stated. They seized the alcohol because it was a prohibited item, in accordance with their authority to enforce university policy. It was not a criminal act, it was just against university policy.
Do you propose they leave a sticky note on the beer saying "not allowed, please take it home?"
Wally, could the OP go to the campus police department, or schools administration building, depending on how things are done, and claim the alcohol, so he can get is personal property back?

A firearm was involved at one point in time, but once again the type of property does not matter, just that it is legally owned. The items still share the commonality that they are against rules but not against law. I attempted to retrieve the alcohol (mainly as a joke and to test this) and was told that it was thrown out, while my firearm was returned the next day.

 

[rooster]

sorry it double posted

 

[rooster]

That's not how it works. You can talk with the county prosecutor. Your choices will most likely be 1. Leave the campus, or 2. Allow the items to be confiscated and be returned later. It's one or the other. It's not a permanent seizure.

I wouldnt talk to the prosecutor. Last I heard 2 years ago VUPD was claiming that he said carrying on campus was the same as carrying at a grade school.I am guessing you live in the apartments just to the north of campus? campus habitat right?

 

[KW730]

I wouldnt talk to the prosocuter. Last I heard 2 years ago VUPD was claiming that he said carrying on campus was the same as carrying at a grade school.I am guessing you live in the apartments just to the north of campus? campus habitat right?

No, campus habitat is not owned by the university. I am in apartments that are owned by the university. Many members of VUPD told me that I was in violation of state and federal law when the firearm was seized, funny how no charges were filed and it was returned the next day. On the upside, the dean was well aware that it was legal and was about as understanding as I could hope for.

 

[Leo]

To be able to properly apply the laws to "univeristy police" you have to find out what the exact incorporation of the Police force declares. For example, some campus police are contracted or university run security forces, a lot like a shopping mall would employ. I do not know about others, but the Purdue Police force is legally on the same ground as any municiple police dept in any city in Indiana. Anything they do has the same authority as a Lafayette city police oficer.