Turning "low tier" AR into "good enough"

[88E30M50]

As best I can tell:

1. Quality bolt and properly staked bolt carrier
2. Ensuring castle nut is properly staked
3. Making sure gas tube isn't "smashed"

All very valid issues that make reliability of the platform suspect.

That's what I gather as well. After that might be:

4. Better FCG to improve trigger feel
5. Possibly replace the barrel with a chrome lined one
6. ???

 

[Vigilant]

That's what I gather as well. After that might be:

4. Better FCG to improve trigger feel
5. Possibly replace the barrel with a chrome lined one
6. ???

Front sight base/gas block properly installed. Bushmaster a few back was notorious for improperly assembled FSBs.

 

[Dolton916]

As best I can tell:

1. Quality bolt and properly staked bolt carrier
2. Ensuring castle nut is properly staked
3. Making sure gas tube isn't "smashed"

All very valid issues that make reliability of the platform suspect.

Two of these are operator failures to inspect and maintain a weapon. Even if they left the factory incorrect it should be caught during the initial inspection and cleaning. Why would ANYONE, shooting ANYTHING, show up to a class with ANY unproven weapon? If they're uneducated about what they're doing, don't blame the rifle, blame the shooter. And I too would be pissed if their inability to prep a weapon and proof it prior to class interfered with my time.

 

[Vigilant]

Two of these are operator failures to inspect and maintain a weapon. Even if they left the factory incorrect it should be caught during the initial inspection and cleaning. Why would ANYONE, shooting ANYTHING, show up to a class with ANY unproven weapon? If they're uneducated about what they're doing, don't blame the rifle, blame the shooter. And I too would be pissed if their inability to prep a weapon and proof it prior to class interfered with my time.

I agree, doesn't change the fact that many sub par rifles leave the factory with poor QC. No matter if it's LMT, DD, or Olympic, or Glock, I inspect everything, clean, then go fire several hundred rounds to make sure it goes bang when I hit the switch. Sadly, a lot of gun owners take it home load it, and that's it. I know a "Tactical Tommy" who has all the latest and greatest whiz bang high fashion accoutrements on his stable of "Fighting Rifles", that hasn't even zeroed his buis or Aimpoint that I helped him set up last year. He also has 100 rods through his EDC 19. It's 4 years old!

 

[rhino]

Two of these are operator failures to inspect and maintain a weapon. Even if they left the factory incorrect it should be caught during the initial inspection and cleaning. Why would ANYONE, shooting ANYTHING, show up to a class with ANY unproven weapon? If they're uneducated about what they're doing, don't blame the rifle, blame the shooter. And I too would be pissed if their inability to prep a weapon and proof it prior to class interfered with my time.

That's a Very Good Question. I've been to a few classes in recent years. It's alarming the number of people who attend class with untested gear of all kinds.

Overall, though, the biggest problem I've seen with all ARs has had nothing to do with make or model. It's been inadequate lubrication. In recent years that has gotten a lot better since some of the big name trainers have finally been able to communicate to enough people the reality that a wet (with lubricant) AR is a functional AR (assuming all else is okay), and a dry AR is going to choke sooner or later, regardless of the brand or quality of build.

The highest frequency of non-lubricant malfunctions have been with 9mm ARs. For every person in a class who brings a functional 9mm AR, there are 9 others who bring one that won't get through one magazine without a problem. Most will state uncategorically that their weapon has never, ever had a problem.

With ARs in 5.56, I've seen a few that wouldn't cycle because the gas key was loose. That's something that is (or was) more common with some specific brands than others. You tend to not see that with Colt, LMT, DD, etc. Most other problems were tiny parts or springs that failed at a bad time. It could happen to any gun, but it's more frequent with some brands than others. One summer some guys from the same police dept showed for a rifle class with brand new, identical DPMS rifles. The chambers were short, but after the armorer user a reamer on the chamber, they were okay.

The rifle I use the most (when I have a chance to shoot) is a Bushmaster complete lower mated to a Double Star complete upper (from before Double Star was "acceptable"). The bolt carrier group did not come with the upper, so I bought an LMT. It's reliable and I can hit torso-sized steel offhand at 240 yards with my EOTech. It's had enough rounds through it and been pushed hard enough that I am confident it will perform as expected when I need it. It continues to run with the only maintenance I do is the addition of lubricant (FP-10 or WeaponShield) and rarely a boresnake pulled through it every few thousand rounds to get the big chunks out of the chamber. I hope I don't die some day because it isn't a premium brand.

​rhino out!

 

[Disposable Heart]

Failures on low end models: I've personally witnessed two different DPMS (one Sportical and another was an M4gery looking thing) both crack bolt heads under 500 rounds. A few other DPMS had jamming issues (and the barrel extension was not screwed in properly, the feed ramps were ABOVE the chamber, not BELOW the chamber ) as well as one had a hammer snap on him after he got it back from repair. ALL the Sporticals I've seen (now, bear in mind, it's been a while, lol) didn't have good staking (or looked to be staked by a 11 year old girl with a pen and a squeak hammer, insufficient). A Bushmaster in a class I attended went **** up when it's hammer/trigger pins were wallowing out their holes due to an improperly treated lower receiver.

Then again, I've personally seen an LMT begin to get stress fractures in it's upper after 500 rounds (roughly) and I personally had a Palmetto discombobulate itself in my hands under 200 rounds due to poor QC. Can happen anywhere. But, the majority of the failures I've witnessed that were poorly made parts were lower models. Just the ins and outs of it. Can you make the low tier weapon high tier? Sure! You just have to put in good parts, not gimmicked crap that's unrelated to the function of the weapon (i.e. Not replacing the bolt head with a Carpenter 168 or S-7, but putting in a Magpul BAD lever instead...)

And even though no one cares: I've seen 1:9 AR!! barrels (and 16"chers too) stabilize 75 grain stuff, one well enough, one just wasn't very accurate with it. I think folks apply bolt action issues with stabilization to ARs and vice versa. A Savage 1:9 .223 can CERTAINLY stabilize even 77grain stuff, SOME 1:9 ARs can but it's something you have to see if it works in yours and not apply a blanket statement over the twist rate in general.

 

[Txlur]

For an extra $200 the Colt will hold its resale value vs. A more 'inexpensive' choice. Ammunition is your real cost over the life of a rifle.

 

[Vigilant]

For an extra $200 the Colt will hold its resale value vs. A more 'inexpensive' choice. Ammunition is your real cost over the life of a rifle.

Exactly my point! Buy a $600 rifle, put $3-400 in it to make it " good enough", and guess what? You just spent to fix something what it would cost to buy it right the first time!

 

[Txlur]

Exactly my point! Buy a $600 rifle, put $3-400 in it to make it " good enough", and guess what? You just spent to fix something what it would cost to buy it right the first time!

And, over the life of the rifle, that 200$ greater cost for the Colt becomes less and less a percentage as the total cost goes up. Plus no Chinese parts.

 

[1775usmarine]

Give me a beat to hell M16 like I had in boot camp and she'll still shoot expert. As long as you practice you can spend millions on the "best" out there. If you can't shoot then you wasted that money just trying to keep up with the Jones'.

 

[Vigilant]

Give me a beat to hell M16 like I had in boot camp and she'll still shoot expert. As long as you practice you can spend millions on the "best" out there. If you can't shoot then you wasted that money just trying to keep up with the Jones'.

M16 would be a mil-spec rifle, not a "just like" the mil-spec, so even if it was 20 years old, it had regular operator, unit, and support maintenance with mil-spec parts, not some suspect just like the mil-spec only cheaper parts assembled by the guy on his first day from labor ready.

 

[1775usmarine]

The AR thread is the same as those talking about 1911's. If I can buy an AR that will reach out to 500 yds with iron sights that's all you'll really need. After 500 yds the round is hardly effective against targets even in Mil Spec M16/4's.

 

[88E30M50]

For an extra $200 the Colt will hold its resale value vs. A more 'inexpensive' choice. Ammunition is your real cost over the life of a rifle.

Exactly my point! Buy a $600 rifle, put $3-400 in it to make it " good enough", and guess what? You just spent to fix something what it would cost to buy it right the first time!

While that is certainly true, that's not the point of this thread. If it were a thread about the best value in ARs, it would be in the long guns forum. But, it's in the gunsmithing forum because it's about improving the reliability of your rifle, not the value of your rifle. As Txlur said, the cost of the weapon should be a small part of it's cost over the lifetime of owning and running it. You also need to remember that the money invested in upgrades is only wasted if you throw the old parts away and then sell the rifle with the new parts. Most guys will keep the old parts and if they do decide to build a custom rifle, will move the good parts over there and reinstall the original parts before selling their first AR. Even if they are happy with the gun after the upgrades, they can sell the old parts to someone building a plinker and recoup some of the cost.

 

[sig1473]

I wouldn't waste my time on the Brownell's kit but rather get this from BCM.BCM SOPMOD Bolt Upgrade Rebuild Kit
I would also invest in a HPT/MPI BCG from a reputable manufacturer. NiB is not necessary. I would then invest in a QMS trigger.
PSA 5.56 Premium HPT/MPI Full Auto Bolt Carrier Group - No Logo
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3023
You could possibly look into a better barrel on down the road, but that is up to you.

 

[cwillour]

After watching the thread for a few days, I really think the "reliable/ergonomic enough for whatever use you want to put it to" statement needs to be toned down or at least clarified.

OTOH, if you are looking to upgrade your gun in an attempt to ensure it continues to function reliably under "modest" use (IMO, that means things like <200rds/month average, regularly maintained, controlled storage environment, infrequent exposure to sustained fire, 0-200yd minute-of-man accuracy, etc.) then there are some solid steps you could take.

1) Replace bolt assembly with high quality HPT/MPI bolt (might as well get something like the BCM SOPMOD kit while you are at it)

2) Pay to have a reputable AR armorer fully inspect and function check the rifle, and be prepared to pay him to fix the deficiencies. The point is to have him identify components and workmanship on your particular firearm that may be at the lower end of the quality scale and bring them up to par. Consider this an augmentation of the factory QC. After this, you should know things like: your gas key is properly staked; your FSB is pinned properly and the gas port appears properly aligned; your barrel extension is installed correctly; your receiver extension is installed correctly and the castle nut is properly staked; your hammer and trigger pins are properly retained; your buffer and bolt carrier are appropriate weights for your gas system to properly cycle the action; etc.

3) If desired, upgrade the barrel (consider having the gas block professionally pinned/installed or getting a complete barrel assembly)

4) Upgrade trigger, if desired

5) Understand what you have, it's weaknesses (6061 receiver extension, barrel material, etc), and the duty-cycle it was built to support

 

[88E30M50]

I've gone over my DPMS and M&P 15 and found both gas keys have been properly staked from the sides, not the top. Both castle nuts have been staked, but not as well but that one is on me because I'm the one that replaced the end plates with Magpul ASAP end plates and did an Ok job of staking the castle nut, but it could be better. Neither gas tube has a kink or any other shape that gives me a reason to worry about those. I did not think they would since both of these rifles have been perfect in function with the exception of a couple of reloads that had bulged brass that jammed in the chamber.

My plan of attack right now is to address the DPMS first by replacing the entire BCG with a BCM M16 set. That will cost about $179. I know that I could get away with just replacing the bolt for $79 but after reading about DPMS gas keys that were properly staked still coming loose eventually, I'll replace the whole thing and not have to worry about the quality of the steel used. I could replace the gas key as well and save about $80 over replacing the entire BCG but I have plans for that BCG and want to keep it intact as is. Stage 2 will be to replace the entire upper with a BCM 14.5" barrel with a permanently fixed flash hider to bring it up to legal length. Stage 3 will be a replacement lower in 7075 vs. the 6061 in the DPMS. At that point, I'll move the current aftermarket parts over to the new rifle and either keep the DPMS as a plinker using all the original parts or will just sell it. I'm not sure what I'll do to the M&P 15 until I learn more about how that one is built.

But, I think I can feel good about the DPMS with just a $179 investment. Maybe a better trigger group too, but the BCG will be enough for now I think.

 

[maxmayhem]

bolt carrier group, barrel /feed ramps, and lpk...the rest of it is just hype..dpms lowers are fine...gun snobs are stupid especially when it comes to ar stripped lowers

 

[maxmayhem]

i saw a rock river break on the first range trip right out of the box..while my home built upper and lower dpms functioned perfectly....i had like 525 in a sport version of it...i gave the guy a part from my rifle so he could shoot it as I was leaving....there is no difference in lowers...

 

[Vigilant]

No one said Rock River was a top tier AR either? I'm a gun snob, self professed, but I ASSURE you, I am not stupid. Keep on keepin on with your home built upper and lower. I for one will buy quality from day one, because I can, and even if i couldn't, I will wait until I can.

 

[Exodus]

As others have said there is nothing you can change to make the snobs think your rifle is good.

I feel there are many better choices than a 6920 for the price.

A family member of mine bought a low tier rifle and was having troubles with ammo/mags that would not transfer over to my mid tier using the same mags/ammo. He did get his troubles corrected by the manufacturer but goes along with what others have stated about QC.