Trust

[IndyDave1776]

Today we have challenges in front of us unlike any we have seen in the past. I consider it critically important to build and establish trust. It is every bit as important as understanding who cannot be trusted.

I am gojng to start with a copy of an excellent post made earlier today which I believe everyond should read:

@DadSmith

I do feel your frustration, and I apologize for inadvertently contributing to it. All of us LEOs on here are true, die-hard constitutionalists. We signed up for a job to help people and protect the American way of life and liberty. As for me, I’ll die penniless in a pile of brass and use my blood to keep the stripes on the flag red, but I’m sure most of us feel that way.

As was mentioned, we’re on the same side, and have said it over and over again, and try to give glimpses into the life of public safety. I specifically did not answer the question because I’m so frustrated that this issue keeps coming up, and we keep being made the bad guys. In fact, I’ve had to step away from the keyboard a few times because of constantly getting trampled. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - why would we keep coming back if we keep getting treated like crap? We get it enough on the street, we don’t need it here.

Let me put it in plain English, for everyone here to understand:

The very vast majority of cops in this country, when the time comes, will stand up and do what’s right. As with everyone, we all have a line in the sand that needs to be crossed before we can give up our way of life. That line, for everyone, has not been crossed yet. I do believe it is rapidly approaching, and can be readily understood by the sheer amount of coppers that are taking early retirement, counting down the days until retirement, or leaving completely.

Now, on a personal level, and maybe this is just me talking, but maybe if you have a small(ish) group of people and within this group of people you have other people with a specialized skill set that have access to various amounts of intel, logistics, communications, and other resources, that maaaaaybe the group as a whole would like to keep those folks on board, rather than ostracizing them. I know many times that I’ve tried to nudge a little prescient information into the conversation in order to help the other members here. I also know that when the time comes, a (ahem) force of capable citizens compromised of folks from every walk of life, including military and LE (fire and EMS for medical support, ya think?) would be a good thing to have.

I’ll end with this: Months ago, I mentioned that I was working on a project that supported military and first responders dealing with PTSD and at the same time would provide a great way of networking and providing service to the community. (Not to mention training and organizing.) Here’s the thing - I wanted to bring it here because I know many in this crowd would want to be involved- but honestly, I don’t feel that welcome anymore.

I am happy to say that the immediate situation ended in mutual understanding, but there is much to consider here.

We need to be very careful given that one of the critical foundations of a police state is seeing that no one can trust anyone else. Relationship building is one of the strongest defenses of any free society. This is the reason why the other team is so intent on destroying the family, the community, and any state or regional loyalties.

Let the discussion begin.

 

[Usmccookie]

I'm not so sure I can start the conversation with a full picture of what I feel and believe, put into words. So I apologize in advance if I stammer over my words.

I am a full on libertarian. Since I joined the 1st civ div back in '14 I started to see things differently. I have gained a general mistrust that any entity, to who I am just a rank and file, has my best interest at heart. There are so many laws. So many of which are, in my eyes, complete b.s. I have family members whose entire job, one of whom is the president/owner of a huuuuge cooperate accounting firm, is to skirt the law and find every loop hole to benefit the same people who write the laws. My core belief is a form of "to each their own" as long as they don't negatively impact another person. I act as such. I "back the blue" in the trusting agreement that they are to uphold the constitution. I draw my line in "backing the blue" when their duties extend beyond the realm of serving and protecting the civilians in their jurisdiction. This is hard to decipher where the line is. More and more departments and politics get involved to further extend the reach of a leo. It is hard to blame any individual for continually giving an inch to continue to provide for their families. In my eyes, that is the plan. Which is no different than 2a infringements or 1a infringements. then look at red flag laws. Where do you draw the line between public safety and adhering to the 4th amendment? I am not lawyer, and I'm sure someone can point to me the part in the law where it says in some obscure subsection why red flag laws are legal.
When the time comes, whether in this lifetime or the next, I will see them as part of the organization they belong to and not separate from the organizations' choices, opinions, actions.

In summary, I trust the individuals as individuals, and parts of an organization as I do the organization.

P.S. I really hope that came out how it sounded in my head...

 

[Ark]

The very vast majority of cops in this country, when the time comes, will stand up and do what’s right.

I know this makes people mad, but I reject this assertion 100%. There is zero evidence, historical or current, to support it. German reserve police had no problem getting called up to conduct mass executions on the Eastern Front. Police are agents of the government and, historically, pretty much every mass murder in history has been perpetrated by agents of the government, when ordered, with virtually zero resistance.

When the time comes, they will do as ordered, they cross themselves and thank God that they're the ones standing over the ditch full of bodies instead of lying in it. This does not make them extraordinary, it makes them pretty much the exact same as every soldier or police officer in history ordered to commit such acts. They will not turn around in unison and open fire on the person giving the orders. This is a fantasy, it's virtually never happened in all of history.

The "line in the sand" doesn't exist. The line wasn't murdering people at Ruby Ridge or Waco. The line wasn't shooting students at Kent State. The line wasn't any piece of gun control legislation in history up to this point. The line wasn't weed prohibition, or alcohol prohibition.

There is no line. The rights of the people on the other side of the firing line rank lower than the brotherhood. 100 times out of 100 they will choose stepping on the rights of the people over shirking their duty to the other men on the team. Literally the ONLY thing necessary to make Reserve Battalion 101 comply with their orders to march entire villages out into the woods and shoot them was to make the men assemble together and require anyone opting out to do so in full view of all his comrades. That's it. That mild social shame in front of one's peers was all it took, and that scene repeated countless times all across the Holocaust and all across every other massacre in history.

Don't talk to me about "lines", lol. Never has been, never will be. It's a fantasy. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Cops, it doesn't mean you're evil people, it just means you're exactly the same as everyone else in history. Look up the Milgram experiment. Look up the Asch conformity experiments. You're not special.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I know this makes people mad, but I reject this assertion 100%. There is zero evidence, historical or current, to support it. German reserve police had no problem getting called up to conduct mass executions on the Eastern Front. Police are agents of the government and, historically, pretty much every mass murder in history has been perpetrated by agents of the government, when ordered, with virtually zero resistance.

When the time comes, they will do as ordered, they cross themselves and thank God that they're the ones standing over the ditch full of bodies instead of lying in it. This does not make them extraordinary, it makes them pretty much the exact same as every soldier or police officer in history ordered to commit such acts. They will not turn around in unison and open fire on the person giving the orders. This is a fantasy, it's virtually never happened in all of history.

The "line in the sand" doesn't exist. The line wasn't murdering people at Ruby Ridge or Waco. The line wasn't shooting students at Kent State. The line wasn't any piece of gun control legislation in history up to this point. The line wasn't weed prohibition, or alcohol prohibition.

There is no line. The rights of the people on the other side of the firing line rank lower than the brotherhood. 100 times out of 100 they will choose stepping on the rights of the people over shirking their duty to the other men on the team. Literally the ONLY thing necessary to make Reserve Battalion 101 comply with their orders to march entire villages out into the woods and shoot them was to make the men assemble together and require anyone opting out to do so in full view of all his comrades. That's it. That mild social shame in front of one's peers was all it took, and that scene repeated countless times all across the Holocaust and all across every other massacre in history.

Don't talk to me about "lines", lol. Never has been, never will be. It's a fantasy. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Cops, it doesn't mean you're evil people, it just means you're exactly the same as everyone else in history. Look up the Milgram experiment. Look up the Asch conformity experiments. You're not special.

I feel obligated to point out that Lon Horiuchi is a sociopath and that the BATFEIEIO is a subset of law enforcement that clearly does not serve the Constitution.

Not only was Horiuchi the killer at Ruby Ridge, but a compelling argument can be made that he was the primary killer of feds at Waco.

I would also point out that ATF lead at Waco guaranteed a fiasco from the beginning. Janet Reno had no intention of a peaceful resolution. Beyond this, hand-picked federal agents are entirely different creatures from those we are speaking with today.

 

[DadSmith]

I know this makes people mad, but I reject this assertion 100%. There is zero evidence, historical or current, to support it. German reserve police had no problem getting called up to conduct mass executions on the Eastern Front. Police are agents of the government and, historically, pretty much every mass murder in history has been perpetrated by agents of the government, when ordered, with virtually zero resistance.

When the time comes, they will do as ordered, they cross themselves and thank God that they're the ones standing over the ditch full of bodies instead of lying in it. This does not make them extraordinary, it makes them pretty much the exact same as every soldier or police officer in history ordered to commit such acts. They will not turn around in unison and open fire on the person giving the orders. This is a fantasy, it's virtually never happened in all of history.

The "line in the sand" doesn't exist. The line wasn't murdering people at Ruby Ridge or Waco. The line wasn't shooting students at Kent State. The line wasn't any piece of gun control legislation in history up to this point. The line wasn't weed prohibition, or alcohol prohibition.

There is no line. The rights of the people on the other side of the firing line rank lower than the brotherhood. 100 times out of 100 they will choose stepping on the rights of the people over shirking their duty to the other men on the team. Literally the ONLY thing necessary to make Reserve Battalion 101 comply with their orders to march entire villages out into the woods and shoot them was to make the men assemble together and require anyone opting out to do so in full view of all his comrades. That's it. That mild social shame in front of one's peers was all it took, and that scene repeated countless times all across the Holocaust and all across every other massacre in history.

Don't talk to me about "lines", lol. Never has been, never will be. It's a fantasy. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Cops, it doesn't mean you're evil people, it just means you're exactly the same as everyone else in history. Look up the Milgram experiment. Look up the Asch conformity experiments. You're not special.

I know several LEO's in my county several are my friends. We've discussed this issue and they would not be on board for anything a authoritarian government would try to force. Our local Sheriff is also a stand up guy. Look him up.

Indy you are spot on. We need to come together build trust in one another or be destroyed as individuals full of mistrust.

 

[Tombs]

I just don't really know how to view the situation. I see a young man defend himself from a group of armed people burning down a city and killing people, and end up having his life destroyed by the law.

I see people profess an undying loyalty to the constitution, and in the next breath defend red flag laws.

And the main defense I see to this is mostly "well neither myself or my department would do that." Which represents a small fraction of departments in the state much less the country.
In a large percentage of the far less free states in this country, police are more than happy to nail your *** to a wall for practicing freedoms you get to enjoy at home, even though they took an oath to the very same constitution which says the very same things. And if they're willing to violate their oath there, why should I believe that the window can't shift here at home? It isn't like those states weren't equally free at one point in time. And don't even start with the "but they voted for it" nonsense, you can't invalidate the constitution through a law, if you could then slavery would still be around.

The law is an overly convoluted mess, made by high-functioning-retards, to keep lawyers employed, and changes on a daily basis. It functions as a minefield for those of us just wanting to go about our daily lives following basic common sense.

I don't think these are unreasonable questions or concerns to have.

 

[DadSmith]

I just don't really know how to view the situation. I see a young man defend himself from a group of armed people burning down a city and killing people, and end up having his life destroyed by the law.

I see people profess an undying loyalty to the constitution, and in the next breath defend red flag laws.

And the main defense I see to this is mostly "well neither myself or my department would do that." Which represents a small fraction of departments in the state much less the country.
In a large percentage of the far less free states in this country, police are more than happy to nail your *** to a wall for practicing freedoms you get to enjoy at home, even though they took an oath to the very same constitution which says the very same things. And if they're willing to violate their oath there, why should I believe that the window can't shift here at home? It isn't like those states weren't equally free at one point in time. And don't even start with the "but they voted for it" nonsense, you can't invalidate the constitution through a law, if you could then slavery would still be around.

The law is an overly convoluted mess, made by high-functioning-retards, to keep lawyers employed, and changes on a daily basis. It functions as a minefield for those of us just wanting to go about our daily lives following basic common sense.

I don't think these are unreasonable questions or concerns to have.

I agree with you. When it comes and if it comes to that point everyone will know where they stand. I imagine many will just roll over and turn in their firearms. I also believe many will not. I believe some LEO's definitely will try to protect the people and some won't. Same with our current military. Give the government 4 years of purging of our military and states like California are purging the LEO's. You just don't know where who or what will happen.

There is still the big IF in all of this. I hope the country wakes up before anything major happens and reverses course.

 

[Tombs]

I agree with you. When it comes and if it comes to that point everyone will know where they stand. I imagine many will just roll over and turn in their firearms. I also believe many will not. I believe some LEO's definitely will try to protect the people and some won't. Same with our current military. Give the government 4 years of purging of our military and states like California are purging the LEO's. You just don't know where who or what will happen.

There is still the big IF in all of this. I hope the country wakes up before anything major happens and reverses course.

I guess simmering that down, my main question for people who consider these concerns to be ridiculous is simply...

What makes us so different that we are immune to this?

 

[IndyDave1776]

I guess simmering that down, my main question for people who consider these concerns to be ridiculous is simply...

What makes us so different that we are immune to this?

It will eventually become a matter of relationship. It is one thing to have an understanding of what Frank or Denny for example will or won't do. It is entirely different to second guess [random cop] from [random place] who we don't know from Adam. The same applies to [random truck driver] or [random janitor] or [random barista]. While the latter examples don't have any authority themselves, they can and likely will dial up people who do, and can be guaranteed to be on the other side.

The first challenge I see is taking a step back from questioning the people we know on account of potential deleterious effects on our wellbeing at the hands of people we do not know just because of a common occupation--just like being a truck driver doesn't put me in a position to explain or answer for the guy in the Schneider truck that just breezed by you on the highway, nor should it be expected.

 

[BugI02]

I think the line in the sand, unfortunately, is the transition to a wide open fight. Even those German police who participated in atrocities might have behaved differently if there was an armed, viable resistance that they could have joined after they turned and opened fire on those ordering them to kill innocents. In the absence of hope, it is difficult to expect a man to take an action that will get him killed and his family tortured and killed

So, it seems to me it will be important to maintain the capability of resistance and offer some believable hope of eventual success. People will most certainly take on hell itself not because they believe they will survive it, but that they believe something worth having will endure for those who do survive or who were left behind