ThunderBirds vs Blue Angels

[Bubbajms]

They're both really good. Just watched a nice PBS special on the Thunderbirds and saw they do a lot of coolness..

The Blue Angels have Fat Albert, though..

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLFB7q8tyd8]YouTube - Blue Angels Fat Albert takeoff with rockets.[/ame]

My little brother is a NFO at NAS-Pensacola, and gets to watch the Angels fly a lot. I guess I'll just pass on his vote..

ANGELS.

 

[Scutter01]

I've always had a soft spot for the Blue Angels, not least in part because I'm partial to the F/A 18 (plus, they flew over my wedding, but that's another story). However, I don't think it's fair to compare the two organizations. They're both, literally, the "best of the best" and either one is pure joy to watch.

 

[Dryden]

Bubbajms: My little brother is a NFO at NAS-Pensacola, and gets to watch the Angels fly a lot. I guess I'll just pass on his vote..

There's plenty of room for bias. Hell, when it comes to most of the stuff on this forum, I'm biased as well as opinionated.

 

[CulpeperMM]

Growing up in Fayetteville NC, there was an annual airshow at Pope AFB. I have seen both Blue Angels and Thunderbirds several times. The last time i saw the angels there they were still flying F-4s.

my choice:
the Thunderbirds. hands down.

 

[shooter521]

The last time i saw the angels there they were still flying F-4s.

my choice:
the Thunderbirds. hands down.

Is that really fair, if you haven't seen the Blues in their current ride? What were the T-Birds flying last time you saw them?

 

[semperfi211]

Blue Angels by far. I have seen them perform a few times at the El Toro air show and I would never get tired of seeing them. I saw the Thunderbirds once, they were good but I like the Blue Angels better. I may be a little biased though.

 

[JNT0421]

I've seen both perform on more than one occasion. I might be a little biased here, being a former Marine..... but the Blue Angels are better. To me, it just seems like they fly faster, tighter, more spectacular stunts, etc... But, if you get a chance to see either of them, GO SEE 'EM!!

 

[Boilers]

My dad turned down an opportunity to be on the crew of the first Blue Angels team. He said no one thought it was a good career move. But, I have gotten to meet some of those that DID take up that initial offer.

My heart lies with the Blue Angels. Simply put, they are divine. I feel a connection to our armed forces when I see them. More than any museum I have visited, they MOVE ME. They make me feel proud of my heritage and of this country.

Nothing against the Thunderbirds, but for some reason they do not do that to me. Nothing wrong with them. But I just am compelled by the Blue Angels.

 

[Griffeycom]

Blue Angels are probably better, even though I favor the Air Force and definitely the F-16. I hope that one day I can fly in a F-16, I love those. But I'd have to say the Blue Angels put on a better show.

Though this video is pretty neat of the Thunderbirds:

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=GnqtELvFjFw]YouTube - F-16 Thunderbird pilot ejects[/ame]

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=4HnQUihqOj4]YouTube - Pilot Ejects From Thunderbird - Ground View[/ame]

 

[Boilers]

Ok. Here is a good metric. Anyone know the safety record of both teams?
Hours logged/shows vs death/crash/ejects and crowd injuries?

It would seem to me that the less number of 'bad' things per hour of public demonstration would show the clearly better team.

 

[ML ll THUMBHOLE]

I've been on the tarmac at Pensicola on several occasions thanks to our mechanic buddies. The Angels do not wear g-suits, and take much pride in that fact. These guys are studs. I watched a dvd of my buddy doing his ride along, I could hear the pilot still doing his breathing, while my buddy went lights out. +++1 for the Angels!

 

[Dryden]

Boilers: My heart lies with the Blue Angels. Simply put, they are divine. I feel a connection to our armed forces when I see them. More than any museum I have visited, they MOVE ME. They make me feel proud of my heritage and of this country.

They don't just move me, they BLOW ME AWAY.

 

[redneckmedic]

An easy test:
Which flying team has had the most crashes?

ANGELS

 

[redneckmedic]

What were the T-Birds flying last time you saw them?

Probably Biwings.........

 

[Dryden]

Bi-wing F-16s..... definately COOL.

Twice as fast and the wing riders look awsome plastered against their harnesses.

 

[Culpepper]

After seeing both at Mt. Comfort, Blue Angels get my vote.


Accidents

During its history, 26 Blue Angels pilots have been killed in air show or training accidents.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#cite_note-8 Through the 2006 season there have been 262 pilots in the squad's history, giving the job a 10% fatality rate.

• 1946 - September: Lt. "Robby" Robinson was killed during a performance when a wingtip broke off his Bearcat, sending him into an unrecoverable spin.
• 1952 - Two Panthers collided during a demonstration in Corpus Christi, Texas and one pilot was killed. The team resumed performances two weeks later.
• October 14, 1958 - Cmdr. Robert Nicholls Glasgow died during an orientation flight just days after reporting for duty as the new Blue Angels leader.[11]
• September 2, 1966 - Lt. Cmdr. Dick Oliver crashed his Tiger and was killed at the Canadian International Air Show in Toronto.
• February 1, 1967 - Lt Frank Gallagher was killed when his Tiger stalled during a practice Half Cuban 8 maneuver and spun into the ground.
• February 18, 1967 - Capt. Ronald Thompson was killed when his Tiger struck the ground during a practice formation loop.
• January 14, 1968 - Opposing solo Lt. Bill Worley was killed when his Tiger crashed during a practice double immelman.
• June 4 1971 - CDR Harley Hall safely ejected after his Phantom caught fire and crashed during practice over Narragansett Bay near the ex-NAS Quonset Point in Rhode Island.
• January 8, 1972 - Lt. Larry Watters was killed when his Skyhawk struck the ground while practicing inverted flight.
• March 8, 1973 - Capt. John Fogg, Lt. Marlin Wiita and LCDR Don Bentley survived a multi-aircraft mid-air during practice over the Superstition Mountains in California.
• July 26, 1973 - 2 pilots and a crew chief were killed in a mid-air collision between 2 Phantoms over Lakehurst, NJ during an arrival practice. Team Leader LCDR Skip Umstead, Capt. Mike Murphy and ADJ1 Ron Thomas perished. The rest of the season was canceled after this incident.
• February 22, 1977 - Opposing solo Lt. Nile Kraft was killed when his Skyhawk struck the ground during practice.
• November 8, 1978 - One of the solo Skyhawks struck the ground after low roll during arrival maneuvers at NAS Miramar. Navy Lieutenant Michael Curtain was killed.
• May 31, 1980 - Lead Solo Lt. Jim Ross was unhurt when he ejected from his Skyhawk after it suffered a fuel line fire during a show at NS Roosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico. The plane landed in a swamp near the air base.
• February 22, 1982 - Lt. Cmdr Stu Powrie, Lead Solo was killed when his Skyhawk struck the ground during winter training at Naval Air Facility El Centro, California just after a dirty loop.
• July 13, 1985 - Lead and Opposing Solo Skyhawks collided during a show at Niagara Falls, killing opposing solo Lt. Cmdr. Mike Gershon. Lt. Andy Caputi ejected and parachuted to safety.[12]
• February 12, 1987 - Lead solo Lt. Dave Anderson ejected from his Hornet after a dual engine flameout during practice near El Centro, CA.
• January 23, 1990 - Two Blue Angel Hornets suffered a mid-air collision during a practice at El Centro. Marine Corps Maj. Charles Moseley ejected safely. Cmdr. Pat Moneymaker landed his airplane, but it never flew again.[13]
• October 28, 1999 - Lt. Cmdr. Kieron O'Connor, flying in the front seat of a two-seat Hornet, and recently selected demonstration pilot Lt. Kevin Colling (in the back seat) struck the ground during circle and arrival maneuvers in Valdosta, Georgia. Neither pilot survived.[14]
• December 2, 2004 - Lt. Ted Steelman ejected from his F/A-18 approximately one mile off Perdido Key after his aircraft struck the water, suffering catastrophic engine and structural damage. He suffered minor injuries.[15]
• April 21, 2007 - Lt. Cmdr. Kevin J. Davis crashed his Hornet near the end of the Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort airshow in Beaufort, South Carolina[16] and was killed, .[17][18] (See 2007 Blue Angels South Carolina crash).

Other incidents involving former Blue Angels

• 1951 - LCDR Johnny Magda, while flying in Korea, was the first former Blue Angel killed in combat.
• January 27, 1973 - CDR Harley Hall (1970 team leader) was shot down flying an F-4J over Vietnam, and was officially listed as Missing In Action.

Accidents

The Thunderbirds have performed at over 4,000 airshows worldwide, accumulating millions of miles in hundreds of different airframes over the course of their 54+ years of service.
Flying high performance fighter jets is inherently dangerous; when flying in extremely close formation the danger is compounded. The team has suffered two fatal crashes during air shows.
The first was the death of Major Joe Howard flying Thunderbird 3 on June 4, 1972 at Dulles Airport, during Transpo 72. His Phantom (F-4E s/n# 66-0321) experienced a structural failure of the horizontal stabilizer. Maj Howard ejected as the aircraft fell back to earth from about 1,500 feet tail first and descended under a good canopy, but was too close to the explosion fireball and did not survive. The second death occurred May 9, 1981 at Hill AFB, Utah, when Captain David "Nick" Hauck flying Thunderbird 6 crashed while attempting to execute a slow speed manuver. The high pressure elevation and subtly rising terrain coupled with Capt Hauck's slow speed put him in a dangerous flight envelope. He hit the ground before realizing his precarious situation. The aircraft hit a large oak tree and a barn, then slid across a field and flipped as it traversed an irrigation canal, ultimately erupting into a fireball just a few hundred feet from the runway's end. No one on the ground was injured even though the wreck occurred adjacent to a roadway packed with onlookers.

Airshows

• September 24, 1961 TSgt John Lesso of the Thunderbirds C-123 crew was killed when an Air Force C-123 carrying the Army Golden Knights crashed on take-off at an airshow in Wilmington, NC. He was the flight engineer aboard the aircraft.

• June 4, 1972: Major Joe Howard flying Thunderbird 3 was killed during Transpo 72 airshow at Dulles International Airport.

Captain Chris Stricklin ejects from his F-16 at an air show in September 2003.

• September 14, 2003: 31-year-old Captain Chris Stricklin, flying Thunderbird 6 (opposing solo) failed to pull out of a dive but safely ejected at Mountain Home AFB in southwest Idaho. Stricklin miscalculated the altitude required to complete his opening maneuver, a "Split S". The elevation of the airfield was about 1100 feet higher than the team's home base at Nellis AFB. He climbed to an inadequate altitude of just 1670 feet above ground level, instead of 2500 feet, before initiating the pull-down dive of the Split S maneuver. Stricklin ejected when the rapidly descending F-16C was only 140 feet above ground - just 0.8 seconds prior to impact. His parachute deployed just above the ground and he sustained only minor injuries from the ejection. There were no injuries to any personnel or spectators on the ground.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Air_Force_Thunderbirds#cite_note-0

Other incidents

• October 9, 1958: 19 men aboard the Thunderbirds' support C-123 are killed in a crash about 50 miles northwest of Boise, Idaho, while en route to McChord AFB. A witness said the aircraft struck a flock of geese [2].

• December 13, 1954: Capt. George Kevil is killed during solo training at Luke.

• September 26, 1957: Lt. Bob Rutte is killed in solo training at Nellis.

• March 12, 1959: Capt. C.D. Salmon is killed in solo training at Nellis.

• July 27, 1960: Capt. J.R. Crane, advance pilot and narrator for the team, is killed during a solo proficiency flight at Nellis.

• April 6, 1961: Maj. Robert Fitzgerald, commander and group leader of the team, and Capt. George Nial, advance pilot and narrator, are killed during training at Nellis.

• May 9, 1964: Capt. Eugene J. Devlin is killed when his F-105 breaks in two as it enters the vertical while in a 3 plane formation following a low pass over Hamilton Air Force Base, California.[3]

• October 12, 1966: Maj. Frank Liethen and Capt. Robert Morgan are killed during a flight at Indian Springs Auxiliary Field in Nevada.

• January 9, 1969: Capt. Jack Thurman is killed in solo training at Nellis.

• December 21, 1972: Capt. Jerry Bolt and Tech Sgt. Chuck Lynn are killed during a flight test at Nellis.

• July 25, 1977: Capt. Charlie Carter, Thunderbird pilot and narrator, is fatally injured during maneuvers at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming.

• May 9, 1981: Capt. Nick Hauck is killed in the crash of his No. 6 T-38 during a low approach at Hill AFB, Utah, impacting south of the runway.

• September 8, 1981: Lt. Col. D.L. Smith, commander of the Thunderbirds, was killed when his aircraft ingested seagulls and stalled while leaving Cleveland, Ohio. Smith crashed into Lake Erie without attempting to eject.

• January 18, 1982: The "Diamond Crash" becomes the worst training crash in Thunderbird history. Maj. Norm Lowry, Capt. Willie Mays, Capt. Pete Peterson, and Capt. Mark Melancon are killed while performing a line abreast loop during training at Indian Springs. The crash resulted from insufficient back pressure on the T-38 control stick during the loop. This major crash with associated fatalities led to the Thunderbirds' getting the F-16 Fighting Falcon as a replacement aircraft. In order to rebuild the Thunderbird Team, the Air Force reached back to previous Thunderbird pilots who were still on active duty to "come out of air show retirement", qualified each in the F-16A, and had them begin flying "two-ship" through all the maneuvers, and expanded — one airplane at a time — up to the full six airplanes. The "new" F-16 Thunderbirds were led by Major Jim Latham.

 

[CulpeperMM]

Is that really fair, if you haven't seen the Blues in their current ride? What were the T-Birds flying last time you saw them?

F-16s

 

[Dryden]

Culpepper: Your stats really drive home the dangers these pilots, ground crews and support personnel are exposed to.
When each pilot is flying at 500mph straight at each other, the margin of error is miniscule. Or when they're doing tight rolling formation with their wingtips just 12inches apart, a slight deviation means death or injury.
:bigballs:

Edited: Ummmm, where did those stats go? Did I just hallucinate?

 

[rhino]

I'm not sure if the Blue Angels test out their pilots without G-suits.... but I'd bet you a dollar they do eventually wear them on a regular basis.

So when should I expect to receive my dollar?

 

[Jeff]

Thanks for the info Culpepper.