The Million Dollar Flash Bang

[mrjarrell]

If you give them toys they will use them. Often with consequences for the innocent. All in the name of their Holy War.

Another Isolated Incident | The Agitator

 

[gunowner930]

Yet another "dynamic" entry gone wrong. Seems to be happening all over the country. Does anybody else think cordon and knocks would be more effective, though less tacticool?

 

[Tim1911]

Hmmmm.....

This is a tough one. I say look at the number of deployments versus the number of cases where a serious injury has occurred. I'd say it's an acceptable risk at that rate. You have to respect the guys who are out doing these dynamic entries every day. I say whatever gives them the edge in the life and death game they are playing daily, go for it.

I also did not agree with the article stating these devices are used to cause injury. They are absolutely not.

 

[Lucas156]

I say look at the number of deployments versus the number of cases where a serious injury has occurred. I'd say it's an acceptable risk at that rate.

Police causing serious injury or death to innocent civilians is an acceptable risk to you so that some junkie can't get high?

 

[Bapak2ja]

Police causing serious injury or death to innocent civilians is an acceptable risk to you so that some junkie can't get high?

They found nothing in the house. LEOs should be responsible for damage done if they are wrong about the site.

 

[NYFelon]

I didn't read anything about any light emitting diodes.

 

[Tim1911]

Police causing serious injury or death to innocent civilians is an acceptable risk to you so that some junkie can't get high?

Has your house ever been involved in a dynamic entry? Have you ever been detained or questioned as a result of your affiliation with a drug dealer or criminal enterprise? It is a shame that the woman was hurt, but why not be more stringent about the company you keep? I understand nothing was found this time, but I have no doubt that something was there just before this incident. These things are screened and signed off up the chain of command. It's not just keeping the junkie from getting high. It's the crime that happens to obtain, traffic, and sell the drugs. I bet if your house was burglarized to sell your possessions to obtain money to acquire drugs you would call the police.

 

[Bond 281]

Has your house ever been involved in a dynamic entry? Have you ever been detained or questioned as a result of your affiliation with a drug dealer or criminal enterprise? It is a shame that the woman was hurt, but why not be more stringent about the company you keep? I understand nothing was found this time, but I have no doubt that something was there just before this incident. These things are screened and signed off up the chain of command. It's not just keeping the junkie from getting high. It's the crime that happens to obtain, traffic, and sell the drugs. I bet if your house was burglarized to sell your possessions to obtain money to acquire drugs you would call the police.

I understand that with drugs being illegal all the bad aspects of violence and crime that result from the black market are an issue. I think the problem is that everything we're doing isn't working, at all. The entire drug war is a complete and utter failure, which has been apparent for years. Yet, police are getting more militarized about going after drugs and in the process hurting/killing a lot of innocent people. Legalization is the ideal solution, imo, because it removes the black market aspect which would in turn reduce the associated crime.

 

[ZombieApocolypse]

Has your house ever been involved in a dynamic entry? Have you ever been detained or questioned as a result of your affiliation with a drug dealer or criminal enterprise? It is a shame that the woman was hurt, but why not be more stringent about the company you keep? I understand nothing was found this time, but I have no doubt that something was there just before this incident. These things are screened and signed off up the chain of command. It's not just keeping the junkie from getting high. It's the crime that happens to obtain, traffic, and sell the drugs. I bet if your house was burglarized to sell your possessions to obtain money to acquire drugs you would call the police.

If this was such a big deal, why didnt they stake out the place to make sure the person of intrest was inside?

Who's to say the woman injured in the raid even knew if this mysterious person of intrest was a gun toting drug dealer?

Would YOU think its ok if one of your good buddies or a family member (whom deal drugs without you having any knowledge of it) came over to your house, (unarmed and without drugs) and the police tear the floorboards up looking for a stash?

 

[Bapak2ja]

If this was such a big deal, why didnt they stake out the place to make sure the person of intrest was inside?

Who's to say the woman injured in the raid even knew if this mysterious person of intrest was a gun toting drug dealer?

Would YOU think its ok if one of your good buddies or a family member (whom deal drugs without you having any knowledge of it) came over to your house, (unarmed and without drugs) and the police tear the floorboards up looking for a stash?

This was my point in my earlier post. The LEOs should knock and announce before they enter in every circumstance because too many times they are at the wrong place.

 

[Lucas156]

Would YOU think its ok if one of your good buddies or a family member (whom deal drugs without you having any knowledge of it) came over to your house, (unarmed and without drugs) and the police tear the floorboards up looking for a stash?

Apparently he would. Apparently its even ok if they accidentally maim or kill him in the process.

 

[level.eleven]

This is a tough one. I say look at the number of deployments versus the number of cases where a serious injury has occurred. I'd say it's an acceptable risk at that rate. You have to respect the guys who are out doing these dynamic entries every day. I say whatever gives them the edge in the life and death game they are playing daily, go for it.

I also did not agree with the article stating these devices are used to cause injury. They are absolutely not.

No, it isn't. Don't throw grenades into peoples homes for certain drugs. This is why the government shucked out a million dollars.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Has your house ever been involved in a dynamic entry? Have you ever been detained or questioned as a result of your affiliation with a drug dealer or criminal enterprise? It is a shame that the woman was hurt, but why not be more stringent about the company you keep? I understand nothing was found this time, but I have no doubt that something was there just before this incident. These things are screened and signed off up the chain of command. It's not just keeping the junkie from getting high. It's the crime that happens to obtain, traffic, and sell the drugs. I bet if your house was burglarized to sell your possessions to obtain money to acquire drugs you would call the police.

Better hypothetical for you, Tim: at what point in our nation's history has it ever been considered Constitutional to throw grenades in at citizens for any reason? Answer: never. The New American has a great article on the rise of the paramilitary police:

U.S. Military Program Arming Local Police Expands

 

[gunowner930]

If this was such a big deal, why didnt they stake out the place to make sure the person of intrest was inside?

Because that's not fun or tacticool, nor does it justify funds for armored vehicles or "elite" SWAT teams with all the latest gear.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Better hypothetical for you, Tim: at what point in our nation's history has it ever been considered Constitutional to throw grenades in at citizens for any reason? Answer: never. The New American has a great article on the rise of the paramilitary police:

U.S. Military Program Arming Local Police Expands

Wrong analysis. I'll walk it through for you.

One of the Constitutional powers granted to Congress is the authority to regulate interstate commerce.

Congress may make drugs illegal under its commerce power.

Under Article 1 Section 8 Congress may make laws to enforce its power to regulate commerce. Those powers can include the creation of a sufficiently armed police force.

The Constitution is silent as to any limitations on the necessary and proper powers.

In any event, the raid was conducted by municipal police, who are not constrained by the Constitution in the same way that federal police would be (even if federal police were restrained, which they are not).

I don't like the use of flash bangs, dynamic entry, and other paramilitary tactics employed and directed toward our citizens. I wish we wouldn't use them. But they aren't unconstitutioal as you suggest.

 

[Bond 281]

Wrong analysis. I'll walk it through for you.

One of the Constitutional powers granted to Congress is the authority to regulate interstate commerce.

Congress may make drugs illegal under its commerce power.

Under Article 1 Section 8 Congress may make laws to enforce its power to regulate commerce. Those powers can include the creation of a sufficiently armed police force.

The Constitution is silent as to any limitations on the necessary and proper powers.

In any event, the raid was conducted by municipal police, who are not constrained by the Constitution in the same way that federal police would be (even if federal police were restrained, which they are not).

I don't like the use of flash bangs, dynamic entry, and other paramilitary tactics employed and directed toward our citizens. I wish we wouldn't use them. But they aren't unconstitutioal as you suggest.

Making drugs illegal is unconstitutional.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Making drugs illegal is unconstitutional.

Brilliant constitutional analysis.

 

[Bond 281]

Brilliant constitutional analysis.

The 18th amendment was needed to make alcohol (a recreational drug) illegal. If it were constitutional to just outlaw it, they it would've simply been done in congress without the hassle of an amendment. But, as they at least realized then, that lay outside the power of the federal government's constitutional power.

This whole Commerce/general welfare clause justification is a gigantic load of ****. It gives the federal government unlimited power the way it's viewed now, which is clearly far, far beyond the scope of intended power.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

The 18th amendment was needed to make alcohol (a recreational drug) illegal. If it were constitutional to just outlaw it, they it would've simply been done in congress without the hassle of an amendment. But, as they at least realized then, that lay outside the power of the federal government's constitutional power.

This whole Commerce/general welfare clause justification is a gigantic load of ****. It gives the federal government unlimited power the way it's viewed now, which is clearly far, far beyond the scope of intended power.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

The Courts under FDR changed the scope and meaning of the Commerce Clause. I don't like it, but it is what it is. That makes drug laws constitutional, unless and until there is a constitutional amendment clarifying and restricting the federal government's commerce clause powers, or another Court overturns it's previous rulings. Neither of those are going to happen anytime soon, IMHO.

 

[Bond 281]

I don't disagree with anything you said.

The Courts under FDR changed the scope and meaning of the Commerce Clause. I don't like it, but it is what it is. That makes drug laws constitutional, unless and until there is a constitutional amendment clarifying and restricting the federal government's commerce clause powers, or another Court overturns it's previous rulings. Neither of those are going to happen anytime soon, IMHO.

Fair enough. I guess my idea is that just because the courts ok some legislativel or presidential action doesn't make it somehow constitutional. All that means to me is that checks and balances have failed.