The "Center Mass" Myth and Ending a Gunfight

[shibumiseeker]

Just because a shot WILL be fatal doesn't mean it ends the threat Right Now. My relatively uneducated opinion regarding actual human gunfight performance and my somewhat educated opinion based on being a medical person and hunter is that just because a lung or heart is hit does NOT mean that the threat is stopped. I've seen too many deer run a hundred yards after a shot destroyed their heart. I've come up on too many of them still breathing five minutes after being shot in the chest. I've also worked several people who have been in gunfights where they ended up dying, but they were still alive and talking to us when we got there several minutes after the shooting.

Lower lung shots may not even stop a person for many minutes after being done. I train high center of mass under the theory that if I hit breastbone, inner shoulder, or throat, that will be more likely to end the threat more quickly than lower thoracic. I agree with the philosophy of keep shooting until the threat stops.

 

[cosermann]

So, the "myth" that Jim is debunking seems to be: "that shooting a miscreant “center mass” with ________(fill in your favorite make, model and caliber) shooting _________ (fill in your favorite ammunition) hyper speed truck killer is practically guaranteed to get the job done."

Duh. That's pretty obvious, isn't it? If such a myth exists in the minds of lots of folks, I suspect most thanks can go to the "one shot stop" crowd, the glossy gun magazines, and the entertainment industry (i.e. movies and tv).

The hostage incident is different from the others he described, where I'm guessing the perp was relatively static behind/next to his human shield. A shutdown shot should obviously been taken.

However, I think his expectation of what amounts to pinpoint accuracy in typical defensive situations (which involve lots of movement on both sides) is unrealistic and disproven by a lot of historical data and what has been learned from force on force training.

Joe's got it, shoot 'em to the ground.

The whole flow of the article isn't all that well put together. Is this typical of Higgenbotham's writing? I haven't read anything from him.

 

[suds]

This article is a good reminder to do our best to 'flight' rather than 'fight' and use our situational awareness to escape / avoid a situation where a gunfire might ensue. A lot easier said than done, but I feel this bears repeating.

 

[JAMZ]

there have been cases of drugged up assailants being shot several times and even being clinically dead and still advanceing and doing harm

 

[JohnP82]

'High center torso' is still the best (easy to hit & lots of vital organs) place to shoot at. If a HCT shot won't instantly stop them, as the authors experience indicates, then an appendage shot definitely won't either. IF (& it's a big IF) you can actually use the sights then a CNS shot would be best for an immediate stop.

I don't think the point of the article is to get people to change their tactics in regard to shot placement. I think the point is to get people to understand that fatal shots aren't ALWAYS immediately fatal & to be prepared for that. That goes back to the concept of "get off the X". If you stand there, draw & fire the BG still has several seconds to several minutes before they are incapacitated. MOVE. The goal isn't to kill the BG but to not get killed or injured yourself.

well said. my exact thoughts

 

[DemolitionMan]

I'm a little perplexed about the myth they're supposedly busting. Like plenty of others, I was taught by the Army to shoot center of mass -- not because it was more likely to kill the opponent, but because you are more likely to hit your target especially under the extreme stress of combat. Hitting a moving target's head is a difficult thing under good conditions, let alone when manure is hitting the fan all around you and the target is shooting back.

Given a moment to take a well-aimed shot at a slow moving or still target I'd certainly go for the head; I just don't think you're likely to have such an opportunity in a self defense situation.

This article is a good reminder to do our best to 'flight' rather than 'fight' and use our situational awareness to escape / avoid a situation where a gunfire might ensue. A lot easier said than done, but I feel this bears repeating.

My son's karate teacher is a great guy and very sensible. His first rule for "winning" a fight is not to get into one -- if at all possible, run away! I love watching him tell a class of newbies that; the looks on their faces are priceless.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Apparently we seem to forget the "El Presidente" type drill:

Two in the chest, one in the head.

+1 Exactly

IMHO, 2 shots COM on anybody that isn't high on drugs is going send their mind reeling. It will reset their OODALOOP (or however its spelled) and their forced to re-evaluate the situation. Most of the time 2 shots COM is going to stop them because they just realize they've crossed the line and they're in DEEP trouble and could die in seconds.

If it doesn't stop them, you've only wasted a split second making 2 COM shots, and it has likely at least made them alter their movement towards you or somehow slowed them down. If they continue in a threatening manner, you can then take the head-shot.

If they were close enough that you don't have time to make 2 COM shots and a headshots, its not going to be pretty anyways.

 

[Spanky46151]

Center Mass is all about the ability to hit the target, not kill the target. Even a heart shot can take up to 15 seconds to incapacitate someone. Center Mass is still the best focus for all but the best combat shooters. If you're over 3 feet from your attacker, forget the head shot...won't happen. Studies have shown that a huge percentage of those involved in a gunfight immediately lock into "tunnel vision" mode and their perception sharpens and slows down. That all sounds like a perfect shot-making scenario, but...studies have also shown that we lose our fine motor skills as well, the thing we need to score a hit on a 9 inch X 6 inch moving target.

That being said, a pelvic girdle shot, one that breaks the pelvic bone, will drop your threat immediately. Although they aren't likely to die fast, unless you hit or a broken bone severs the femoral artery, in which case the perp will bleed out quickly, but they will at least be immobilized. That allows you time to find cover as they are folding like a cheap lawn chair.

In my line of thinking, I believe in my ability enough to be capable of lowering my point of aim 2 feet to accomplish this, but doing so will be a hard, conscious effort as it is contrary to all the firearm training I have ever had.

So, as much as the thought pains me as a man, if I ever have the misfortune to need to deploy deadly force against an attacker, I'm gonna make every effort to shot him just above the ole tallywacker!

Obviously, this is my own personal opinion and preferred tactical option...of course, I could be wrong.

 

[obijohn]

That being said, a pelvic girdle shot, one that breaks the pelvic bone, will drop your threat immediately. Although they aren't likely to die fast, unless you hit or a broken bone severs the femoral artery, in which case the perp will bleed out quickly, but they will at least be immobilized. That allows you time to find cover as they are folding like a cheap lawn chair.


Obviously, this is my own personal opinion and preferred tactical option...of course, I could be wrong.

This sounds good in theory, but the chance of hitting bone is less than completing a good head shot. The pelvic girdle is a fairly wide open frame that is mostly open space. Add that to the the fact that no too pelvic girdles are shaped the same or located the same...
The percentage shot for most of us is high center chest. Even if you hit a bit off vertically or horizontally, you still will hit some important gooey bits.

 

[Spanky46151]

No offense obijohn, but this doesn't look wide open to me, but, again...that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Then do you take his gun if he has one?

Of course, it's a rule. To the victor go the spoils, besides I've seen enough silly blondes throw down their weapon and leave only to get caught again later.

It's a given in every B movie. When the bad guy falls down, bash him in the head a few more times and hold his head in a bucket until he quits bubbling. Then it's really safe to relax.

 

[obijohn]

No offense obijohn, but this doesn't look wide open to me, but, again...that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

no offense taken. i submit however that the pic is misleading to a degree. if you hit the bowl of the ilium, you might as well hit air. to truly immobilize, the hip socket will need to be destroyed. there are a couple of other good spots to hit, but still a low percentage shot, from my point of view. consider if you will, the geriatric that goes for some time, often the rest of their lives, with a broken hip. slows them down a bit and it hurts, but doesn't stop them. i will agree that IF you hit something vital, then a pelvic cage shot will immobilize an adversary, but reading case reports and autopsies as well as hearing first hand reports tells me that i will continue to use the high center chest as an aiming point. that is if i can see it. if not, i will shoot at the largest piece of meat that i can see.

 

[Spanky46151]

I can't disagree with your COM argument, it's sound procedure, but should I ever be forced to engage a person, I'm looking to every advantage I can muster. I believe that would include a target which provides; limited clothing (no heavy coats or, especially, body armor), immediate physical immobilization (shatterd pelvis= no chasing me and greatest chance of an immediate collapse), maximum sensory overload (horrific pain from both injury to the flesh and to the bone), least amount of muscle between the "off switch" and the bullet, possibility of secondary damage/injury forcing threat to cease (bleed-out from femoral artery) and even the huge psychological shock of having one's genital area violently assaulted.

I also fully believe that today's "thug" society has no fear of dying. They'd much rather be killed being remembered as one who stood and shot it out, than someone who dropped their gun and ceased their attack because they were afraid to die. I don't think their own demise enters into their response to my having shot them...I think, at that point, their only goal is to kill me and I'm going to do any/everything I can to prevent them from achieving that goal. The only way to do that is to interrupt their capacity to physically perform. I just pray that I never am forced to test my theroy, but I certainly intend on assuming one day I will...and rehearse my performance so I've got it down pat before the curtain goes up,

 

[jeremy]

It's a given in every B movie. When the bad guy falls down, bash him in the head a few more times and hold his head in a bucket until he quits bubbling. Then it's really safe to relax.

Unless he becomes a zombie...

 

[GSquared]

I actually took at class that Jim Higgonbotham taught and he had a lot of statistics and video showing how long it took for people to stop being in the fight after being hit with "lethal" shots. That is why he preaches for a spine shot fairly high that will instantly incapacitate/kill the bad guy.

One of the quotes from the class that has stuck with me was "Keep shooting until the target changes shape or bursts into flames!!" Meaning, keep shooting until the target is no longer a threat, this is not saying to keep shooting after they have left the fight (major legal issues there).

 

[Manan]

I'm still firing center mass until done.

 

[jeremy]

That is why he preaches for a spine shot fairly high that will instantly incapacitate/kill the bad guy.

Good luck with that magic shot, when you have someone fighting with or shooting at you...

 

[84VETTE]

Sounds like I need to by a bigger pistol, my 5 shot .38 snub nose may not get the job done.

 

[bman]

thanks for the info

 

[DRob]

I'll check with my bookie

I draw a parallel with the idea that any gun you carry is better than the one you don't carry. The shot that hits the bad guy anywhere is better than the shot that misses.

I'm not saying you shouldn't train but there is one major fault in most training. Paper targets never shoot back.

If I actually had a bookie, I'd put every penny I have on the majority of shots fired at a guy who is shooting back won't hit him, let alone hit him in any specific spot. Don't kid yourself. Try to shoot where you have the largest margin for error.