Show ID?

[Beau]

I think you guys are missing the point. If you are carrying a gun especially if you don't conceal it you must expect that someone will call the police. During the encounter with the police they have the right to detain you while they determine if a crime has been committed. During that time they DO have the right to ask you for your ID and Carry License. If you refuse or fail to provide a carry license and your ID card or Drivers license. You will go to Jail.
Easy solution, Conceal your weapon.
Now if you take the gun out of the equation that is another story. Then we are talking about a consensual encounter. If the police stop to talk to you and ask you your name and DOB there is nothing making you tell them if they have no reason to stop you. But before you say FU and walk away you better know you did not break even the most minor of city ordinances like J-walking or failing to carry proper hack license, or failing to have the proper bleach water solution to poor on the ground when your working horse in the mile square downtown goes pee. If you have even appeared to violate one of those inane laws that you have no clue about and cops relish, then guess what? You or your friend with that bad attitude thinking I don’t have to talk to the police is going to jail for resist on a good day and the Wishard emergency room on the bad day.
I will finish by saying, you should be happy that the police stopped you and checked your ID. You were doing nothing wrong and went on your way. I would rather the police stopped me 10 times a day to make sure I was a law abiding citizen then they did not stop the person that was breaking into my house or robbing a bank or raping my wife because they did not want to offend your EGO.

I would say that you are missing the point.
"I would rather the police stopped me 10 times a day to make sure I was a law abiding citizen "
Well let us get those check points set up so that your papers may be inspected while passing from county to county.
" During the encounter with the police they have the right to detain you while they determine if a crime has been committed."
So if I'm standing on a street corner waiting for a ride because my car broke down they have the right to approach and detain me to make sure I'm not commiting a crime?

I have the right to carry a gun. I have the right to walk down the street. I have a right to drive a car. oh yeah, I have this right as well.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated.

Now where have I read this before???

 

[Beau]

As was the situation you described earlier. If an officer sees a man with a gun and asks to see ID and LTCH I believe that is a reasonable request. He has no reason to believe you are legally carrying unless you provide proof.

How is that a reasonable request? Following your logic if LE sees you doing anything they have the right to ask for ID, Permit, License etc..
Exp: Your walking through a park alone. LE sees you. They should stop you to determine why your there? After all you may be a pedophile about to grab a child.

Carrying a gun is not a crime. Unless LE has RAS that a crime is being commited or about to be commited they should not be able to stop you.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

Easy solution, Conceal your weapon.

Wrong.

Introduce yourself to your local cops. Know them. Treat them as a friend and neighbor. It's not us vs. them, friends vs. enemies.

I don't OC to "prove a point" to anyone as has been said in a few threads here. I OC because I enjoy it, and I know when it isn't proper to OC somewhere that I am liable to cause a ruckus by the mere sight of a firearm. I have no reason to hide it, though.

If you wish to CC all the time, that is perfectly fine by me. The most important thing is that you carry. To me, OC vs. CC discussions boil down to me complaining about what make or model of holster you use. It doesn't matter - Carry and carry safely. That is all.

I do expect to be asked by a LEO at some point in the future if I have an LTCH, and that is fine by me because most people only see firearms stored in a closet, under the bed or pointed at their nose as they are being mugged or their business is being robbed. People need to see more guns being carried by more law-abiding individuals so that they aren't scared of the sight of them and they can feel somewhat comforted that there may be someone nearby to help them out if a bad situation occurs.

Carry and carry safely, but carry.

Now if you take the gun out of the equation that is another story. Then we are talking about a consensual encounter. If the police stop to talk to you and ask you your name and DOB there is nothing making you tell them if they have no reason to stop you. But before you say FU and walk away you better know you did not break even the most minor of city ordinances like J-walking or failing to carry proper hack license, or failing to have the proper bleach water solution to poor on the ground when your working horse in the mile square downtown goes pee. If you have even appeared to violate one of those inane laws that you have no clue about and cops relish, then guess what? You or your friend with that bad attitude thinking I don’t have to talk to the police is going to jail for resist on a good day and the Wishard emergency room on the bad day.

See my earlier comment about making friend with your local PD. It's not about having a friend so that I can get away with something that another person can't, it's so the LEOs know who I am and that I am a person of good character.

I will finish by saying, you should be happy that the police stopped you and checked your ID. You were doing nothing wrong and went on your way. I would rather the police stopped me 10 times a day to make sure I was a law abiding citizen then they did not stop the person that was breaking into my house or robbing a bank or raping my wife because they did not want to offend your EGO.

I'm never happy being stopped by the police (hasn't happened in more than 13 years now) because I am a law-abiding citizen, and if they have to stop and check my ID then I am just wasting their time when they could be catching the bad guy that you mentioned.

BTW, if I'm home, that bad guy won't be making it back out the window he came in. That's not an empty threat, that's training.

Once again, it doesn't matter how you and I carry, carry and carry safely.

 

[JHAWK1980]

Me personally I have never been asked for ID or LTCH I have always had an officer come from behind me grab my gun (glock 22) remove it from my holster ( after letting me know he is a LEO) handcuff me take out my wallet remove my ID and LTCH make there calls field strip my gun and remove ammo from mag stick it all in different pockets and let me go (without saying sorry or have a nice day) last time this happened was sunday march 22 at the plainfield wal-mart with my wife and 3 children there asking "is daddy going to jail" that is the way it goes for me at least... I am not saying all LEO are like this as I have many friends in LE that would rather write a warning than a ticket if you know what I mean

 

[Plague421]

I think you guys are missing the point. If you are carrying a gun especially if you don't conceal it you must expect that someone will call the police. During the encounter with the police they have the right to detain you while they determine if a crime has been committed. During that time they DO have the right to ask you for your ID and Carry License. If you refuse or fail to provide a carry license and your ID card or Drivers license. You will go to Jail.
Easy solution, Conceal your weapon.
Now if you take the gun out of the equation that is another story. Then we are talking about a consensual encounter. If the police stop to talk to you and ask you your name and DOB there is nothing making you tell them if they have no reason to stop you. But before you say FU and walk away you better know you did not break even the most minor of city ordinances like J-walking or failing to carry proper hack license, or failing to have the proper bleach water solution to poor on the ground when your working horse in the mile square downtown goes pee. If you have even appeared to violate one of those inane laws that you have no clue about and cops relish, then guess what? You or your friend with that bad attitude thinking I don’t have to talk to the police is going to jail for resist on a good day and the Wishard emergency room on the bad day.
I will finish by saying, you should be happy that the police stopped you and checked your ID. You were doing nothing wrong and went on your way. I would rather the police stopped me 10 times a day to make sure I was a law abiding citizen then they did not stop the person that was breaking into my house or robbing a bank or raping my wife because they did not want to offend your EGO.

I think this is a perfect explanation. I agree totally with you.

I would say that you are missing the point.
"I would rather the police stopped me 10 times a day to make sure I was a law abiding citizen "
Well let us get those check points set up so that your papers may be inspected while passing from county to county.
" During the encounter with the police they have the right to detain you while they determine if a crime has been committed."
So if I'm standing on a street corner waiting for a ride because my car broke down they have the right to approach and detain me to make sure I'm not commiting a crime?

I have the right to carry a gun. I have the right to walk down the street. I have a right to drive a car. oh yeah, I have this right as well.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated.

Now where have I read this before???

Actually the point is being misconstrued by you. No you are not in violation of a law by standing next to your broken down car, lets use common sense. However when you walk into a busy shopping mall carrying a gun, you have now presented an oppourtunity to cause panic. Like it or not, no matter what the law says or how well you know the law, the masses may not and act as if you are a criminal. This has just become an unfavorable situation.

As for the police detaining you, guess what, failure to prove that you have a LTCH says to me that you don't have one, thus breaking the law by carrying a gun. Why do you think they give out the cards? From what I understand is that you will be detained until it is verified that you do have a LTCH at which point you will be released.

You are correct sir, you have all those rights, except driving a car, that is NOT A RIGHT. However due to the masses of ignorace and criminals, those rights must now be monitored and controlled. A convicted criminal DOES NOT have the same rights as you do. Like it or not thats the way things are.

How is that a reasonable request? Following your logic if LE sees you doing anything they have the right to ask for ID, Permit, License etc..
Exp: Your walking through a park alone. LE sees you. They should stop you to determine why your there? After all you may be a pedophile about to grab a child.

Carrying a gun is not a crime. Unless LE has RAS that a crime is being commited or about to be commited they should not be able to stop you.

Well following YOUR logic you would allow any criminal to walk down the street with a gun and the police wouldn't be able to do anythign about it until somthing bad happens. Is it really that big of a deal to you to have a LEO to say "Sir do you have a permit for that weapon?" and you respond by saying "Yes I do would you like to see it?"? I mean is taking a whole 3 min out of your life to avoid a big conflict and unnecessary arrest too much?

A LEO's job is to enforce the law, which is why in a traffic stop the basics are verified. Such as asking for your drivers license and proof of insurance. Failure to provide either means you are in fact in violation of the law.

Driving: Rule #1 don't drive without your drivers license
Carrying a pistol: Rule #1 don't carry without you LTCH

These are very simple rules to solve a very complex problem, identifying criminals and violations of the LAW.

Do what you want, argue with a LEO about your rights, go to jail until you are a verified LTCH holder. That's your wasted time.

Do I agree that you shouldn't have to? YES! However as I said before it only takes a small few to ruin it for the rest of us.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I am confused on IN law on if a person must present ID to LE if approached and asked.

Scenario:
Police respond to MWG call. Find person walking through store carrying. (OC of course). Does person have to show ID and LTCH?

If someone could point me in the right direction to find this info I would appreciate it.

What would be the point of the political illuminati blessing you with their written permission to carry a firearm if you were not expected to produce it upon demand by their blessed strong arm enforcers?

 

[Jack Ryan]

Me personally I have never been asked for ID or LTCH I have always had an officer come from behind me grab my gun (glock 22) remove it from my holster ( after letting me know he is a LEO) handcuff me take out my wallet remove my ID and LTCH make there calls field strip my gun and remove ammo from mag stick it all in different pockets and let me go (without saying sorry or have a nice day) last time this happened was sunday march 22 at the plainfield wal-mart with my wife and 3 children there asking "is daddy going to jail" that is the way it goes for me at least... I am not saying all LEO are like this as I have many friends in LE that would rather write a warning than a ticket if you know what I mean

So I guess you were lucky it was a cop and not "the bad guy" who got the drop on ya.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I don't have a problem with them asking for my ID. I have had them ask before. The problem I have is when they talk down to you or talk at you with an attitude or like they are interrogating you. I know that not all cops do it probably just a small portion of them do it so no offense to you fpd. My concern is our government making criminals out of good citizens. I know its tough because you are always right on the line of violating peoples rights and doing what is right just to catch the criminal. I think you know what I mean there even though it is worded strange. But thanks to our law enforcement and other emergency personnel for risking their lives to keep our country safe. God Bless you guys

They are interrogating you. They are not out there looking for good guys. Good guys are on every corner. They are looking for the bad guys. If they are talking to you, they are looking for a law you broke or an excuse to sniff out more information about you so they can arrest you.

They are looking for people to put in jail. That is their job.

They are not paid to look for nice people and pat them on the back.

 

[Hoosier8]

How is that a reasonable request? Following your logic if LE sees you doing anything they have the right to ask for ID, Permit, License etc..
Exp: Your walking through a park alone. LE sees you. They should stop you to determine why your there? After all you may be a pedophile about to grab a child.

Carrying a gun is not a crime. Unless LE has RAS that a crime is being commited or about to be commited they should not be able to stop you.

Hate to say this Beau but I have seen this very thing done to black men in predominantly white neighborhoods. Why you ask? Need you ask? It is called profiling.

If there really is a question in your mind, whether right or wrong, the prudent thing to do is give only the information that you are required to give, which would be your name, address and/or license if driving. To clear up anything else may require a trip to the courts. While on foot, I really don't think most cops are going to waste their own time by trying to needlessly harass you unless you look like you are attempting some kind of suspicious behavior, or if they get a call about you (man with gun comes to mind). Remember, if they get the call, they have to check it out. It's what you are paying them to do.

 

[Paul]

As was the situation you described earlier. If an officer sees a man with a gun and asks to see ID and LTCH I believe that is a reasonable request. He has no reason to believe you are legally carrying unless you provide proof.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

 

[bigg cheese]

I'm really going to try and find more info on this. I'm from CO originally and there you do not have to provide ID. If you are not commiting a crime you can simply walk away from LE. This is the way it should be.

Having to present ID when doing nothing wrong is the same as KGB=Papers Please.

I'm not sure this makes sense. How do you know if you've committed a crime? Police pull people over all the time and are often not told what the offense is until the officer has verified ID and proof of insurance.

 

[Beau]

I'm not sure this makes sense. How do you know if you've committed a crime? Police pull people over all the time and are often not told what the offense is until the officer has verified ID and proof of insurance.

But there was an offense...When was the last time you were stopped just because LE felt the need to pull you over without a reason.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

If your stopped for a infraction you do have to identify yourself, name, address, dob or DL if in your possession.

IC 34-28-5-3.5
Refusal to identify self
Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
(1) name, address, and date of birth; or
(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession;
to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.

Which if your not breaking any laws/ordinances shouldn't apply if your just walking down the street. (IANAL)

 

[bigg cheese]

You have to admit, there are many offenses that you may commit without knowing, or a LEO who makes a bad call.

I know people who have been pulled over for speeding or not stopping at a stop sign, respectully disagreed with the officer, and did not get a ticket.

Officers can make mistakes too.

Also, don't forget that there are random breathalizer tests or checkpoints on some of the most alcohol-laden days of the year, just to make sure we're all being safe. not because they know you are drunk. They think you might be, or you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

But there was an offense...When was the last time you were stopped just because LE felt the need to pull you over without a reason.

Its not in IN but there is a state can't remember which one where the police are allowed to pull you over for good driving. To hand out "good driving certificates" And while they have you pulled over to check for dl and registration and such. They started doing it after sobriety check points were found to be unconstitutional. And I have been stopped walking down the street for no reason, other than the leo was wondering what a early 20s male with long hair was doing out at midnight or so.

 

[Beau]

If your stopped for a infraction you do have to identify yourself, name, address, dob or DL if in your possession.

IC 34-28-5-3.5
Refusal to identify self
Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
(1) name, address, and date of birth; or
(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession;
to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.

Which if your not breaking any laws/ordinances shouldn't apply if your just walking down the street. (IANAL)

Thank You. This was the answer I wanted. It only took four pages to get it. I will research this section of code further.
Going off of this snip alone a person does not have to present ID to LE unless an infraction has been committed.

Scenario:
Your seen carrying by LE, be it CC or OC they notice either way.

LE: I need to see your ID/LTCH.

You: Do you have reason to believe that I am or about to commit a crime?

LE: Just show me your ID or you'll go to jail.

You: Unless you have reason to believe I have committed an infraction or ordinance violation you do not have the right to demand my ID.

This could go on. And could have many different outcomes.

Peaceably carrying a firearm is not grounds to suspect a crime.

 

[ATF Consumer]

I just saw an episode of COPS the other day where two LEO's were on patrol through a neighborhood. The driver had indicated that he likes to be proactive on fighting crime, keeping an eye out, looking for trouble, rather than wait for it to call him.
As they were driving down one city block, there were 3 individuals on the sidewalk, one of them carrying a rifle.
Of course both LEO's exit their car with weapons drawn, approach the three citizens and proceeded to secure the sidewalk, check the rifle..........BB gun???????

They told the three citizens that they shouldn't have a BB gun out in public, as someone could mistake it for a real rifle and cause unwanted trouble.
I thought, yeah, like have LEO's totally violate you while obeying the law.

 

[Denny347]

I am confused on IN law on if a person must present ID to LE if approached and asked.

Scenario:
Police respond to MWG call. Find person walking through store carrying. (OC of course). Does person have to show ID and LTCH?

If someone could point me in the right direction to find this info I would appreciate it.

The post has gone off in two directions, one question was the original post and the second is the scenario about police just randomly asking for ID. USSC has answered the question about random stops and us asking for ID so I will not everyone with the details. However, if I get called to a business where the caller stated that there was a person with a gun, it is a bit different. This only applies to my dept and Indianapolis in general. We normally ask what the person is doing with said firearm. If there is a disturbance and the person has a gun, but never came into play, we give that more attention obviously. If the person is just shopping and the caller noticed that the shopper was OCing, well treat that differently (usually). I speak in generalities because each incident can be different and require a different response. However, if I am there for a disturbance and see you OC...I WILL ask for LTCH and ID. You fail to provide me with LTCH, it is jewelry time. If the person is doing nothing other than OCing, we may just talk to the caller (if it is not annon) and let them know IN carry laws. I've been known to check for a LTCH from a person who was doing nothing else by simply asking "You have a permit for that correct?" and when they reply "Yes" I move on. Lasts 5 seconds. It is really a non-issue. I cannot remeber EVER getting a call of someone OC and they called us just for that reason alone. There is usually a disturbance involved with it, big difference. Now on the same note, there is no permit required to carry a rifle in Indiana but bet your butt that you will get stopped and questioned if you are walking through city streets carrying a rifle/shotgun. Of course I do work the one of the crappiest areas of the city.

 

[Denny347]

I just saw an episode of COPS the other day where two LEO's were on patrol through a neighborhood. The driver had indicated that he likes to be proactive on fighting crime, keeping an eye out, looking for trouble, rather than wait for it to call him.
As they were driving down one city block, there were 3 individuals on the sidewalk, one of them carrying a rifle.
Of course both LEO's exit their car with weapons drawn, approach the three citizens and proceeded to secure the sidewalk, check the rifle..........BB gun???????

They told the three citizens that they shouldn't have a BB gun out in public, as someone could mistake it for a real rifle and cause unwanted trouble.
I thought, yeah, like have LEO's totally violate you while obeying the law.

Was it in Indiana? If not, it could be quite illegal for someone to carry ANY firearm in their jurisdiction. If that is the case I clearly understand. If that was here in my craphole, yup they most likely getting stopped as well. The manner of carry could be the deciding factor of stopping them. Is in in a case? Are they holding it at the low ready but still not pointing it? Are they carrying it in a manner that points it at passing traffic? It is VERY situational but worth investigating.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Was it in Indiana? If not, it could be quite illegal for someone to carry ANY firearm in their jurisdiction. If that is the case I clearly understand. If that was here in my craphole, yup they getting stopped as well. They manner of carry could be the deciding factor of stopping them. Is in in a case? Are they holding it at the low ready but still not pointing it? Are they carrying it in a manner that points it at passing traffic? It is VERY situational but worth investigating.

Not sure, as some episodes jump around to various locations...I totally understand the situation with rifles...I would be drawing my weapon on those individuals as well...

It must have been a bit on the embarrassing side to find it was only a BB gun.

I love to watch COPS...it is the only true reality TV.