Seymour Training opportunity - Tactical Response

[smccabe17]

Fighting Pistol

I took Fighting Pistol by Tactical Response in Seymour Indiana. The local Seymour PD hosted us. They were fantastic. The instructors were James, Brian, and Mike. All three of them were great. Half of the class was the local Seymour Police Dept and the other was just everyday people. I am from a family owned garden center. Others were IT and other professions.

I had taken fighting pistol the year before in Seymour. I was glad I took it again. At first I only took it because I was taking the Force on Force also that week. I took another Intro to force on force earlier in the summer and realized I had not paid my dues to truly learn everything taught in the course. I only practiced the fun stuff. So I knew that I had to take it again and master it and pay my dues this time. I plan on taking it again because you can never get enough of the basics for your foundation.

I was using a Glock 19 w/ big dot sights in a Raven ACR on a Wilderness belt. The whole time I wore a cover shirt because I never open carry. I figured why practice doing something different that how I am usually carrying. I had no problems with any of my gear.

The class started off with introductions of instructors and the students. We went over the safety rules and the medical plans. We were treated like adults with our pistols. We practiced doing the draw stroke with empty guns. As soon as you were told to reach for you pistol you were to yell stop and move. The force on force class explained why you should move right away. There is no way you are able to out draw a guy with a gun pointed at you and not get shot. It is a lot better to win the fight with no holes in yourself.

We did plenty of malfunction drills. I like how almost all your problems can be solved with the same procedure. Makes it very simple to figure it out. To reinforce this, there were dummy rounds in every magazine. You were always having to practice your malfunction procedures threw the whole class. My Glock did not have any problems the whole class. Last year when I took the class I was the guy who brought a 1911. I really didn’t need the dummy rounds because it malfunctioned enough on its own for me. I ended up using someone’s spare Glock for the second day. After the first class that was the last time I have ever shot a 1911.

Once we were done working on the draw stroke and malfunctions we started with live fire drills. There were several steps to the fight that we kept adding to. First there was the fight. This was drawing the gun the steps showed by the instructors and shooting the cardboard where they said to shoot at with using your sights. Next we added assess the situation. Did we actually shot the guy enough? Then we scanned the area. He might have had a friend with him that is pissed that you just shot his buddy. Once you found that there was no one else that needed to be shot, we topped off our gun with a fully loaded magazine. You never know if you are going to need the gun again. If you do, it is best if it is completely full.

We practiced shooting from the kneeling and prone position. Then we practiced shooting while getting up from the prone position. Drawing your gun while you have been knocked down could be very dangerous. You could easily shoot yourself. Even if you are down, you are still in the fight. He will not wait for you to get up.

We also shot using only our dominant and nondominat hand. Your other hand may have been injured during or before the fight. Murphy’s Law will only get you when you in a horrible position. Shooting with your left hand when you are right handed is no fun. The gun is shaking all over the place. That is something I really need to work on. Doing malfunction drills one handed was also difficult.

Another thing I realize I have to work on is shooting while on the move. I had a horrible time trying to keep the sights on the target. I was all over the place with my shots on the target. We practiced shooting while moving forward and backwards. Then we practiced shooting while moving side to side. The hardest part was not alternating your walk while shooting. You need to practice shooting while walking your normal stride because that is what you are going to do while under stress.

On the second day the rain came down. In the morning we had a lecture on mindset, tactics, and when you are able to use lethal force. After lunch we were back outside shooting in light rain. We did a lot of shooting behind cover. It is very easy to leave a body part hanging out in the open for a bad guy to shoot your foot. I would have lost mine several times. We even practiced moving to cover and then shooting from it.

We worked on dot drills. The year before my shots were all over the place. This year I was more pleased with my shots. The last thing we worked on was shooting from retention. You had to keep the gun very close to your body and use the other arm to protect your neck from getting hit. Once we had the going we practiced from retention and then moving away while shooting.

The class was just fantastic. The instructors were top notch. We had different instructors from last year. All of them were great. All I can hope for is to take a course from them all.

The shooting was great, but so was the lecture. The mindset talks are always my favorite. Basically never give up. You are in the fight to win.

 

[smccabe17]

The Fight: Force-on-Force

I took Tactical Response’s The Fight. It was a force on force scenarios. The class was in Seymour Indiana. We used an old building that no one was using anymore. This class was completely different from Fighting Pistol. Fighting Pistol was non-stop from the get go. The Fight was far more stressful. You would wait your turn the run the scenario, after you did it you had to write an after action report of it. There was a lot of time to think about what you did right and a lot more time to think about how you really screwed it up. It makes you very humble with your mindset, tactics, and skill.

The class started off with introductions. Almost everyone who was there took Fighting Pistol the two days before. The instructors were James, Brian, Brian, and Mike. All 4 of them were fantastic.

For this class, there was no use of live ammo or weapons. Everyone had to leave their pistols, ammo, knives, ect. in their car. We used modified Glock pistols that shot simunitions. It was pistol cases that were primer fired with no powder that shot out a plastic capsule that had paint in them. Everyone had to wear masks to protect their eyes. We all had clothing to protect exposed skin. Even when the marker hit you with your clothing, it did leave a mark. It just stung for a bit. During the scenarios, you barely noticed it because you are so jacked up on adrenaline.

The role players went out into the different rooms to prepare the scenarios. Each one was different. Sometimes there was a no shoot situation, some were either maybe shoot maybe not, and others were you had no choice. Some of the actors were just bothering you and if you would have shot them, you would have been in jail in a heartbeat for murder. This is where you had to figure if they had intent, ability, and opportunity. There were a couple of times where they had all three, but tacticly it would be stupid to draw your gun.

There was several times it is just best to get the hell out of there and call for the police for help. It is way to easy to get shot if you think that you can do it on your own. You have to find out what you are willing to fight for and die for.

These scenarios will stick with you for a long time. There is one that happened to me that I just couldn’t get out of my head. I should have fought, but I didn’t and I was executed. I did nothing to fight for my life when they said that that you were going to shoot me.

This class is unbelievable. This is where you find out if you actually learned and mastered what you have been practicing. I did find a lot about myself. I need to practice moving my cover shirt before drawing. There were several times my gun was wrapped up in my shirt. It took me way to long. When moving while shooting I did not always use my sights. I was shooting low. Once I was behind cover I found them again.


You tell yourself that you are going to do this and that if it happens to you, but you won’t if you don’t practice it and have the mindset. By the end of day two you weren’t as jumpy because your mind had seen some of this before.

There is so much more but so hard to put it into words. All I can say is get your but to Force on Force training.

 

[Shay]

Force on Force is powerful and necessary training. It's bad most gun owners will never take a live fire class and it's worse that even fewer will pay to test what they think they know.

 

[Tinslinger]

Indyal, I took the class in Seymour on the 19th/20th. Fighting Pistol is for ANYONE who wants to WIN a gunfight. Civilian,LEO,contractor,or grandma. Which direction it takes depends on you. "train like you fight, fight like you train" . In other words if you carry as a civilian then train as one. Don't go out and get outfitted in LEO gear, and it will be a civilian application. LEO's or civilian's should all want to WIN the fight, and that is what Tactical Reponse will teach you.

 

[Fenway]

 

[Shay]

That location looks great. Nice pics.

 

[jblomenberg16]

I wondered what the cars were doing there when I drove by Tuesday over my lunch hour. Then I saw the updates to the thread and put 2 and 2 together. Looks like an idea setting for the Force on Force.

 

[Tinslinger]

Shay , we learned to fight from the ground , because there may come a time in the real world when someone knocks you down and then tries to kill you. They taught us to fight from the ground to your feet and put the threat down from all levels.

 

[Tinslinger]

Appoligies Shay.

I opened my mouth before I knew who you where. Hard to read the sarcasm on the post. Again my apologies.

 

[Shay]

I opened my mouth before I knew who you where. Hard to read the sarcasm on the post. Again my apologies.

No worries.

My next comments would be about students not keeping their guns pointed "down range".

 

[Steve MI]

ahh what is down range.....? is there such a thing and does it exsist

 

[Shay]

Down range is where ever my gun is pointing.

 

[tyler34]

edit: wrong thread

 

[troy_mp]

My After Action Report re: the Tactical Response classes recently held in Seymour, IN

Tarantino 'neath the Bodhi Tree or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the World's Most Dangerous ATM.

Abridged assessment: First rate. Attend, you’ll be much better for it.

Unabridged assessment …
For what it’s worth, I consider "Fighting Pistol [Mobile]" and "The Fight - Force on Force Scenarios [Mobile]" two sides of the same token. A token that buys you your first trip on the life-long learning express that is responsible and effective handgun ownership/innocent life preservation. As such I've combined the two classes into one for purposes of my After Action Report (AAR).

WHAT was taught:
1.) "Fighting Pistol [Mobile]": (a/k/a: How to drive a pistol like 'ya 'gots some damn sense.) Tactical Response
and

2.) "The Fight - Force on Force Scenarios [Mobile]": (a/k/a: How the 'rubber' of the aforementioned 'driving' lessons meets the 'road' of life.) http://www.tacticalresponse.co...urse.php?courseID=80

WHERE it was taught:
Seymour, Indiana, USA. "Fighting Pistol [Mobile]" was graciously hosted by the Seymour Police Department at the Seymour Police Department Shooting Range within the Freeman Field Airport complex. "The Fight - Force on Force Scenarios [Mobile]" was held at an undisclosed government location craftily disguised as the abandoned area 'out back' of the local 84 Lumber.

I'd driven down from Indianapolis, IN for the four days of training, (i.e.), two days for "Fighting Pistol [Mobile]" and two more days for "The Fight - Force on Force Scenarios [Mobile]" . Interestingly enough I'm originally from near the Seymour, IN area and graduated from Seymour High School.

It was a nice opportunity to visit my family, (free room and board 'doncha know) and spend some time with equally motivated/engaging course classmates. I'd heard about the Tactical Response courses via the Indiana Gun Owners (INGO) website, (i.e.), INGunOwners - Indiana Gun Owners Community. Bart Bevers, one of the Seymour Police Officers, is a member of INGO. One of his postings highly touted the Tactical Response training approach as he and other members of the department had taken courses with Tactical Response.

WHEN it was taught:
"Fighting Pistol [Mobile]" was 9/19/09 - 9/20/09.
"The Fight - Force on Force Scenarios [Mobile]" was 9/21/09 - 9/22/09.

WHO taught it/attended it:
Tactical Response trainers ... James Yeager, ‘Aussie Brian’, ‘Diesel Brian’, ‘Real Estate Mike’ and ‘Peace Officer Ian’ [sorry I didn't get everybody's last name 'fellas. Maybe in the interest of maintaining plausible deniability per any future inquiries as to whereabouts that's not such a bad thing. By contrast ... James is so high profile, read raging hemorrhoid, there's little sense in trying to safeguard his identity since I'm sure he's in the 99th+ percentile on so very, very many **** lists by now. ]
In attendance were folks from all walks of life ... Information Technology workers like myself, Police Officers, folks in the Executive Protection game, Small Business Owner, ER nurses and even an ER Physician. ER personnel are a lot like handguns ... better to have one around and not need him/her than to not have one when you need 'em.

WHY I took it:
Having recently renewed/upgraded my concealed carry permit to "lifetime" status, my genuine thanks to my home state of Indiana for that option, I decided I could learn a thing or two about being a better armed citizen and would hopefully have some fun to boot.

HOW it was taught:
The Tactical Response trainers are big movie buffs. Keeping with that notion/flavor ... from "The Untouchables" - 1987 per The Untouchables (1987) - Memorable quotes
"Malone (Sean Connery): Why do you want to join the force?
George Stone (Andy Garcia): To protect the property and citizenry of...
Malone: Ah, don't waste my time with that bull****. Where you from, Stone?
George Stone: I'm from the south-side.
Malone: Stone. George Stone. That's your name? What's your real name?
George Stone: That is my real name.
Malone: Nah. What was it before you changed it?
George Stone: Giuseppe Petri.
Malone: Ah, I knew it. That's all you need, one thieving wop on the team.
George Stone: Hey, what's that you say?
Malone: I said that you're a lying member of a no good race.
[He cuffs Stone across the face. As he draws back his arm again, Stone presses a gun under his chin]
George Stone: Much better than you, you stinking Irish pig.
Malone: Oh, I like him."
Don't let that spook you though. You'll see why/how it's worthwhile below.

******************************************************************

Troy Murray-Plumer here. For the benefit of my fellow classmates on the aforementioned dates; (d/b/a: John Wilkes Booth courtesy of the ever-benevolent/sharp-tongued Mr. Yeager who stated that “three names” was a common trait among murderers)

So, let's start with my wacky title for this AAR. Why "Tarantino"? What's the "Bodhi Tree"? And why am I (Troy) ripping off the subtitle of the movie "Dr. Strangelove"?

Tactical Response head honcho James Yeager is a Tarantino fan. In that respect the old adage of "Birds of a feather flock together" is applicable. IMHO, while James may not be on Quentin's speed dial they are for all practical purposes 'brothers from alternate mothers'. Simply put ... abundantly and equally profane yet profound; by turns vexing and entertaining.

The Bodhi Tree is the purported location of enlightenment for Siddhartha Gautama. The geographical point at which 'Mr. Buddha' became "awakened".

So imagine instead of a serene cloth swaddled shaman of the near-east you found black shark-skin suited Quentin Tarantino sitting no less serenely beneath that Banyan tree all set to give you the 411-smackdown on how to extrude high velocity lead down a short tube at whatever current piece of nastiness harboring murderous intent you happen to be faced with and you'll have my point.

As to why I'm "ripping off", kinder souls might say paying homage to, the subtitle from the movie "Dr. Strangelove ... while one might think that there'd never be anything loveable about thermonuclear devices and/or ATMs located in exceedingly 'dodgy neighborhoods they'd be missing the deeper lessons to be had. Namely, human nature is such that we tend to learn our deepest most abiding lessons not from our successes but from our failures.

Once one comes to appreciate that transcendent realization, (i.e.), that we often learn best from failing despite good faith efforts to succeed, one can learn to love the process of acquiring these hard won insights. For the love of St. Michael don't take a willy-nilly approach to the deployment of nukes or, like Mary Poppins, go toodling into a gang infested neighborhood looking to pull wads of greenbacks out of a machine. These are merely analogies for the purpose of illustrating deeper truths by way of simulated exercises. Act the 'knob and you'll die.

Moving on; looking at the "equipment list" of what to bring to class per http://www.tacticalresponse.co...urse.php?courseID=73 you'll see item #1, right at the tippy top folks, is "One (1) open mind". Part and parcel with that notion I'd add as a cautionary note, don't let your feelings get hurt. Separate the 'wheat' that is the useful info. that's being imparted from what often may feel like the 'chaff' of, shall we say, very direct speech.

To quote another movie, one of my 'faves, (i.e.), "A Christmas Story" per A Christmas Story (1983) - Memorable quotes ...

"Ralphie as Adult: [narrating] In the heat of battle my father wove a tapestry of obscenities that as far as we know is still hanging in space over Lake Michigan."

"Ralphie as Adult: [narrating] Now, I had heard that word at least ten times a day from my old man. He worked in profanity the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It was his true medium; a master."

At times James can come across as over-bearing. This doesn’t come as any news for either James nor those that know him. In fact, he was open and candid about the fact when asked. I appreciated that.
For me what worked was to realize that while some comedians "work blue" that doesn't make them any less humorous. And great humor always comes from a place of great truth and insight. Such was also the case for the training James gave.

As a counterpoint to James, the other instructors, (i.e.), ‘Aussie Brian’, ‘Diesel Brian’, ‘Real Estate Mike’ and ‘Peace Officer Ian’ played a bit more of the "good cop". It's a welcomed and ultimately beneficial balance. Sort of like the character of "Gunny" in the preparedness novel "Lights Out" by David Crawford per http://www.survivalmonkey.com/...ightsOut-Current.pdf. "Gunny", like all good drill instructors, alternately verbally assails and sagely commiserates/compliments his charges so that they each learn how to retain the lessons of not simply survival but victory amid the pressure(s) of what may prove to be real-world/life-and-death struggles.

This is not to say that any of the instructors are all 'this' way or 'that' way. Like all of us they're admixtures of gruffness and grace. To their credit they each seemed to know which to apply and when.

To their everlasting credit one of the concepts repeated on the range, in the classroom and in the handouts was that none of us should see Tactical Response as the be-all/end-all in training. Rather we should see Tactical Response as a “piece of the puzzle” and seek out additional training from others who in turn will provide the other “pieces”.
I think this notion speaks volumes as to the maturity, decency and stewardship of Tactical Response toward their area of expertise. In this day and age, especially in this economy, it’d be easy to downplay the notion that in order to achieve mastery we should seek out multiple teachers. Tactical Response didn’t do that either overtly or on the sly. They were quick to share their ‘rolodex’ of quality instructors and their schools.

All the points on the "equipment list" in preparation for attending the courses per http://www.tacticalresponse.co...urse.php?courseID=73 are spot on and leave you wanting for nothing. In hindsight I'd have put my kneepads on from the get go. Doing so would've saved me from grinding my knees into spent shell casings when we moved to that portion of the firing positions.

One more thing that would've helped me a great deal would've been to be in better shape. At 5'11" and 235 lbs. I'm about 70 pounds over my recommended weight and I'd not kept my muscles toned.

As such I was quite stiff in the legs for days 2 through 4. Not the end of the world. Not even a debilitating distraction with each fresh hit of adrenaline from the Force on Force scenarios. Still, I didn't do myself any favors.

On the upside the experience of feeling old and fat has caused me to renew my physical training and dining habits. As a result in the intervening days between those classes and this writing I've dropped a few pounds and am beginning to tone up. A nice side benefit to my feeling that my 'buttocal region was dragging. See, we really do learn a great deal from our failings.

Looking back over my notes here are a few of the stand-out points. Again, these are from my notes so the folks at Tactical Response have the ultimate say as to whether or not I'm giving you a bum steer. If so, we'll all learn something more amid my potential "failure". These notes are certainly not all inclusive, just a few of the points that struck me as highlights.

*.) "Fight, Asses, Scan, Top-off." Learn it, live it, love it.

*.) Four cardinal rules of safe gun handling:
1.) Assume every gun is loaded.

2.) Never point your gun at anything you're not willing to obliterate.

3.) Never put your finger on the trigger until your sights are on the target and you've decided to shoot.

4.) YOU are responsible for where your round(s) land. Know your target and what's beyond it.

*.) Four key elements for justifiable use of lethal force in the protection of an innocent:
1.) Imminent, (i.e.), immediate, threat of grave bodily injury. I like to add "... and or death" just
to drive the gravity of the situation home. Really just "... threat of grave bodily injury" would be
sufficient as it would be inclusive of "death".

2.) Intent: By words or deeds does the person in question demonstrate that they intend "grave bodily
injury"?

3.) Ability: By number of attackers, weapon, size of attacker or strength of attacker vs. your lacking
in any of these areas does the person in question have the ability to make good on their demonstrated
intent?

4.) Opportunity: Can the person in question actually make good on their demonstrated intent and ability
right now? For instance, threatening you via phone is NOT sufficient cause to hunt them down.

For what its worth, I've incorporated saying these things to myself after each cycle in the dry-fire practice exercise recommended on page 28 of the "Tactical Response: Fighting Pistol" bound study guide.

*.) The "Tactical Response: Fighting Pistol" bound study guide is great. Chock full of info. that’s relevant and well organized. In addition to covering all the material presented in lecture and on the range it includes many fine articles that are left to us to read on our own. One criticism, if possible print them using a non-running ink as the rain that occurred during our session caused the text on mine to get a bit streaked. Still legible, but when you've got such valuable info. that you'll ideally use like a well worn reference book it'd be nice if it were a bit more durable.

*.) Very, very important to recognize that the skills imparted by way of all training are perishable if not practiced "routinely, relevantly and realistically". As an ongoing classroom-esque augmentation toward honoring those commitments, (i.e.), not a substitute for range time, before I attended the classes above I got the Tactical Response DVDs "Fighting Pistol" via http://www.tacticalresponsegea...=99&products_id=2343 and "Shooting Missology" which, oddly enough as of this writing, I don't see via http://www.tacticalresponsegea...th=99&sort=2a&page=1 or http://www.tacticalresponsegea...th=99&sort=2a&page=2 nor via an online search of the site using "Shooting Missology". I'm sure someone from Tactical Response can/will address that.

The DVDs are great. They, in addition to the two recommended books...

*.) Surgical Speed Shooting" by Andy Stanford via http://www.tacticalresponsegea...=99&products_id=2854

and

*.) "Principles of Personal Defense" by Jeff Cooper via [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Personal-Defense-Jeff-Cooper/dp/B000XGQBY0/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1"]http://www.amazon.com/Principl.../ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1[/ame]. This may also be available via Tactical Response's Gear site at [ame="http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/catalog/index.php"]Tactical Response Gear[/ame] but I wasn't able to find it among the other media.

... left me feeling like I was able to get much more out of the courses as I'd studied all of them prior to attending. James and others may now be shaking their heads in wonderment as to why I didn't perform even better as a result, but I felt I would've been far worse without them.

*.) “Front sight, front sight and front sight.” Concentrate on the front sight. Smoothly pull the trigger back. The "Tactical Response: Fighting Pistol" bound study guide, on-range instruction and the DVDs mentioned above were all great tools at reinforcing this CORE concept and it’s finer points.

I don't mean to give the sense that I'm paying short shrift to "The Fight - Force on Force Scenarios [Mobile]". I'm of the mind that in some ways that the less that is said the better so as to preserve the experience for those who'll go. I will say that I have a great deal of admiration for ‘Aussie Brian’, ‘Diesel Brian’, ‘Real Estate Mike’, ‘Peace Officer Ian’ and fellow classmates that on a rotating basis also acted as role-players. Those folks worked their butts off as they had to give their all in each repeated scenario in order to make it as worthwhile as possible for the attendees.

James wasn’t idle either as he answered a great many questions on topics ranging from relevant books with which to flesh out our personal defense/preparedness libraries to instructions on treating injured folks. Additionally he acted as an aggressive prosecutor in a mock courtroom scenario. I also liked our each individually completing After Action Reports at the conclusion of each scenario. These make for fine take-aways for further practice and analysis.

The scenarios are very well geared to what we'd been taught by way of "Fighting Pistol [Mobile]" and as a result really drove those lessons home. In the way of an inside joke to those that have attended "The Fight - Force on Force Scenarios [Mobile]" let me close by saying that I'm either 'gettin a new pickup truck or learning to become a master mechanic 'cuz it sucks long, hard and deep to keep breaking down in 'dodgy neighborhoods.

Take care all!

Troy

 

[shooter521]

Holy crap, Troy! Now that's an AAR... I'll have to go back and re-read it just to make sure I "got" everything...

 

[Bart]

Great AAR Troy. It was great that you could come back home for this.

 

[troy_mp]

...

 

[troy_mp]

Great AAR Troy. It was great that you could come back home for this.

Thanks Bart. And thanks to you and Shooter521. Shooter521 for talking about training with me and you for posting about this opportunity.

Thanks to you too for your role in making all the facilities available to all of us as attendees. I feel so much better about carrying as a result of the classes.

 

[troy_mp]

Holy crap, Troy! Now that's an AAR... I'll have to go back and re-read it just to make sure I "got" everything...

lol. That's why I put the "Abridged" version right up top. Welcome to the 'mash-up' that is my 'noggin in motion. ;-)

 

[IndyGunSafety]

Great job! Keep up the good work! The course looks like a blast! (Ha! Get it? Blast?)