Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[KG1]

The Russian Cruiser ‘Moskva’ Dominates The Black Sea

The Russian navy cruiser Moskva by far is the most powerful warship in the Black Sea. If Russian President Vladimir Putin orders his troops to widen their war in Ukraine, Moskva, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, undoubtedly would lead the naval assault.

www.forbes.com

IF reports are true and it has sunk then it's dominating the bottom of the Black Sea.

 

[rooster]

Interesting if true.

I could certainly see American special forces being out in the field in Ukraine. American advisors near the borders helping with logistics. And other American "advisors" aka CIA, doing dirty work around the country.

But "in charge of the war," seems more far fetched.

Zerohedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Considering the information finally coming out about how SOG ran the secret war in Cambodia, Laos and other places during Vietnam I don’t consider this far fetched.

 

[Wolfhound]

A story on the Moskva from the BBC:

Sunken Russian warship Moskva: What do we know?

Russia says the Moskva sank after an explosion of ammunition, but Ukrainians say they hit it with missiles.

www.bbc.com

 

[BigMoose]

A story on the Moskva from the BBC:

Sunken Russian warship Moskva: What do we know?

Russia says the Moskva sank after an explosion of ammunition, but Ukrainians say they hit it with missiles.

www.bbc.com

If its true, and the Ukrainians got it.. its an amazing feat.

By all estimations they have one operational launcher, because the system is so new. So if what twitter Rob Lee reports that she has rolled onto her side in the water... its as good as sinking it.

Keep in mind, that Turkey has the Dardanelles straight closed to Russia (and Ukraine). As they traditionally do to any combatants. So what Russia has in the Black Sea is all they will have for this fight.

Keep in mind while the Black Sea Fleet did have a single cruiser, the remaining ships are Frigate sized.

Landing ship wise, two alligator class have been destroyed in Berdansk. And two Ropucha-I were spotted leaving port in a hurry, one smoking more then the other.

Making things worse, is part of the Black Sea fleet is out in the Mediterranean. They can't affect the war. But do have a place to home port, thanks to the Russian base in Tartus Syria.

In short, Ukraine has seriously crippled the Russian Navy in the Black Sea...

 

[nra4ever]

If you don't find this funny oh well....

 

[DadSmith]

Finland and Sweden take major step towards joining Nato

‘Whole security landscape’ changed with Russian invasion of Ukraine, say leaders at joint press conference

www.theguardian.com

If Finland joins NATO it's a very short distance to Moscow. If Russia can't take Ukraine it likely will have more problems with Finland unless the Finns have changed dramatically since WWII.

 

[Leadeye]

Ship doctrine in the 50s and 60s was that, armor on a ship is useless.
A nuke can take them out, so don't even try to armor.
By doing this, they can concentrate more on the engineering plant, weapons, sensors, etc.
Also contributing to that, was subs. After all, torps put a LOT of heat in a sensitive area.

Then, there was the push to replace guns with missiles.
Missiles mean more range. And if you can hit the enemy when he can't get you...

So, much of that doctrine is still around.
Oh, we've evolved anti-missile defenses (counter missiles, chaff, Electronic Counter Measures, Flares, Close In Weapon System (Phalanx CIWS) and such.
But basically we have eggshells carrying sledgehammers.
And they are great when hitting targets dozens to hundreds of miles away, in the "Blue Ocean".

But up close?
Your sensors get confused by "clutter".
Anti missile defenses don't have enough time to come online.
Long range naval missiles are not an ideal "point blank" weapon.

Up close, you want some armor, and some guns.

Out of curiosity, are there anti ship missiles today that can get through the armor belt of an Iowa class battleship.

Maybe we should have built a few Montanas.

 

[singlestacksig]

Out of curiosity, are there anti ship missiles today that can get through the armor belt of an Iowa class battleship.

Maybe we should have built a few Montanas.

ships that big you don't use missiles on..

This is what it looks like when a MK-48 torpedo breaks your keel

The damage inflicted on a surface combatant by a modern torpedo striking the hull is so severe that it presents an existential threat to even the U.S. Navy’s famously tough ships.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Wolfhound]

Ship doctrine in the 50s and 60s was that, armor on a ship is useless.
A nuke can take them out, so don't even try to armor.
By doing this, they can concentrate more on the engineering plant, weapons, sensors, etc.
Also contributing to that, was subs. After all, torps put a LOT of heat in a sensitive area.

Then, there was the push to replace guns with missiles.
Missiles mean more range. And if you can hit the enemy when he can't get you...

So, much of that doctrine is still around.
Oh, we've evolved anti-missile defenses (counter missiles, chaff, Electronic Counter Measures, Flares, Close In Weapon System (Phalanx CIWS) and such.
But basically we have eggshells carrying sledgehammers.
And they are great when hitting targets dozens to hundreds of miles away, in the "Blue Ocean".

But up close?
Your sensors get confused by "clutter".
Anti missile defenses don't have enough time to come online.
Long range naval missiles are not an ideal "point blank" weapon.

Up close, you want some armor, and some guns.

I still remember the USS Stark getting hit by two Exocets. I remember thinking well...apparently the Phalanx isn't all that great. Apparently they had it turned off. Crazy stuff.

 

[SEIndSAM]

Kremlin Sanctions List Includes 4 US Lawmakers Linked to Russian Companies.​

MSN

 

[Keith_Indy]

Interesting article on the history of Ukraine's military modernization efforts...

I Commanded U.S. Army Europe. Here's What I Saw in the Russian and Ukrainian Armies.

The two armies at war today couldn’t be more different.

www.thebulwark.com

 

[jwamplerusa]

Finland and Sweden take major step towards joining Nato

‘Whole security landscape’ changed with Russian invasion of Ukraine, say leaders at joint press conference

www.theguardian.com

If Finland joins NATO it's a very short distance to Moscow. If Russia can't take Ukraine it likely will have more problems with Finland unless the Finns have changed dramatically since WWII.

I don't think the Finns have. Watch a couple of episodes of Finnish brutality on In RangeTV. They maintain a seriously bad*** civil guard.

 

[Wolfhound]

Interesting article on the history of Ukraine's military modernization efforts...

I Commanded U.S. Army Europe. Here's What I Saw in the Russian and Ukrainian Armies.

The two armies at war today couldn’t be more different.

www.thebulwark.com

Excellent article. Well worth the time to read it.

 

[BigMoose]

Finland and Sweden take major step towards joining Nato

‘Whole security landscape’ changed with Russian invasion of Ukraine, say leaders at joint press conference

www.theguardian.com

If Finland joins NATO it's a very short distance to Moscow. If Russia can't take Ukraine it likely will have more problems with Finland unless the Finns have changed dramatically since WWII.

They have changed. They are even MORE armed and prepared.

 

[Redhorse]

Finland and Sweden joining NATO is a little late to me. The Finns should've considered this ages ago but I understand why they didn't do it until now. Russia already has its hands full with Ukraine; no way they could maintain another front in Finland too. Not conventionally anyways.

The CIA warned not to take Russia lightly when it comes to tactical nukes. It'd definitely change things significantly if Putin nuked Kyiv over supposed "attacks" on Russian soil.

 

[IronHammer]

Interesting article on the history of Ukraine's military modernization efforts...

I Commanded U.S. Army Europe. Here's What I Saw in the Russian and Ukrainian Armies.

The two armies at war today couldn’t be more different.

www.thebulwark.com

That was an excellent and worthwhile read. It really sheds light on the quality of Ukraine's fighting forces compared to the bumbling Russians. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Wolfhound]

Finland and Sweden joining NATO is a little late to me. The Finns should've considered this ages ago but I understand why they didn't do it until now. Russia already has its hands full with Ukraine; no way they could maintain another front in Finland too. Not conventionally anyways.

The CIA warned not to take Russia lightly when it comes to tactical nukes. It'd definitely change things significantly if Putin nuked Kyiv over supposed "attacks" on Russian soil.

I agree with your post. I think Finland and Sweden are concerned with what happens after the Ukrainian conflict. They don’t want to be the next country in Putin’s sights.

 

[IronHammer]

Finland and Sweden joining NATO is a little late to me. The Finns should've considered this ages ago but I understand why they didn't do it until now. Russia already has its hands full with Ukraine; no way they could maintain another front in Finland too. Not conventionally anyways.

They were content to keep their peace until Putin showed his true colors. Now they are scrambling for the protection of NATO (such as it is).

The CIA warned not to take Russia lightly when it comes to tactical nukes. It'd definitely change things significantly if Putin nuked Kyiv over supposed "attacks" on Russian soil.

This is the scariest part to me -- Russia is rapidly realizing their fighting forces are not up to the task and they are being increasingly cornered and out-played. Their nukes are their only real option left. How the US and NATO respond to Putin's nuclear play (whatever it turns out to be) will directly affect the decisions of every other nuclear state on the planet.

 

[Keith_Indy]

They were content to keep their peace until Putin showed his true colors. Now they are scrambling for the protection of NATO (such as it is).



This is the scariest part to me -- Russia is rapidly realizing their fighting forces are not up to the task and they are being increasingly cornered and out-played. Their nukes are their only real option left. How the US and NATO respond to Putin's nuclear play (whatever it turns out to be) will directly affect the decisions of every other nuclear state on the planet.

I think as important would be how China reacts if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine.

The other option is to withdraw with their tail between their legs. Putin is already purging the dolts who provided the intel, tactics and assurances that their military was up to the job.

I don't expect that would be to the liking of the Madman of Moscow.

 

[BigMoose]

This is the scariest part to me -- Russia is rapidly realizing their fighting forces are not up to the task and they are being increasingly cornered and out-played. Their nukes are their only real option left. How the US and NATO respond to Putin's nuclear play (whatever it turns out to be) will directly affect the decisions of every other nuclear state on the planet.

Part of me wonders in what state of readiness the Russian Nuclear arsenal really is... after what we have seen with everything else.

But then again, you only need a few to work.. so it doesn't matter what percentage actually work.