Rural King 4473 Pre-Screen

[CTBay]

I had a felony. A few years ago I had it reduced to a misdemeanor. I thought I was good to go to buy firearms. I didn’t know about all the extra work I needed to do with ISP and the FBI to get that reduction recognized. I thought if I gave it a few months the record would correct itself. Thats NOT how it works. I went in RK Bloomington thinking I was good to go and tried to buy an AR lower. Denied! This was 2017ish. I just left and largely forgot about it.

Three or four years later I get an expungement. This time I work with ISP, ATF, and FBI to obtain and then correct my records BEFORE I attempt to buy any firearms. It works! I have been able to buy 10 or so different firearms. I applied and was granted my LTCH and all is well. I got to spend some real quality time shooting with my dad before he passed for which I will be forever grateful.

With several gun buys under my belt I attempted to buy an Anderson lower for $57 at RK Bedford yesterday. Denied! The guy at the counter said ATF denied. I was livid! I called the office and they said that because I was denied a few years ago that “legally” I need to have that specific denial overturned before they can sell me any firearms. Why would I seek to overturn what was probably a righteous denial on a firearm nobody has? Total BS! They freaked me out. Did I just loose what I worked so hard and paid so much to get!? So I go to local gun store and buy a $115 lower receiver just to verify my status. 4473 goes through in seconds like all the others short of RK and I leave with my lower.

Now I know its RK and not the ATF denying me. Most of you guys don’t have this issue. So why should you care? Ill tell you. At Rural King they lead you to believe you are completing a 4473. You aren’t. You are completing a Rural King pre-screen, which when passed, seamlessly forwards the data to ATF. Make no mistake, they saved that data. I know FFL requires some data to be retained but I believe this is above and beyond that. They denied me based on information retained from several years ago they had saved and due to store policy. The ATF never got that 4473 to decide on because RK never passed it on. Then they tell me to my face the ATF denied me. I got RK denied not ATF denied.

If you don’t want all your information saved in a database for Rural King to loose for all of eternity you maybe shouldn’t buy a gun there. They are all mostly 10-20% overpriced anyway.

It is true that if you are ever denied at RK you can NEVER buy another firearm from there. Their policy on it is so disconnected from reality it cannot be worked with or moved beyond. Its just a big pile of stupid keeping me from saving $60 on a lower. Should have grabbed a couple at the 1500.




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[4sarge]

I had a felony. A few years ago I had it reduced to a misdemeanor. I thought I was good to go to buy firearms. I didn’t know about all the extra work I needed to do with ISP and the FBI to get that reduction recognized. I thought if I gave it a few months the record would correct itself. Thats NOT how it works. I went in RK Bloomington thinking I was good to go and tried to buy an AR lower. Denied! This was 2017ish. I just left and largely forgot about it.

Three or four years later I get an expungement. This time I work with ISP, ATF, and FBI to obtain and then correct my records BEFORE I attempt to buy any firearms. It works! I have been able to buy 10 or so different firearms. I applied and was granted my LTCH and all is well. I got to spend some real quality time shooting with my dad before he passed for which I will be forever grateful.

With several gun buys under my belt I attempted to buy an Anderson lower for $57 at RK Bedford yesterday. Denied! The guy at the counter said ATF denied. I was livid! I called the office and they said that because I was denied a few years ago that “legally” I need to have that specific denial overturned before they can sell me any firearms. Why would I seek to overturn what was probably a righteous denial on a firearm nobody has? Total BS! They freaked me out. Did I just loose what I worked so hard and paid so much to get!? So I go to local gun store and buy a $115 lower receiver just to verify my status. 4473 goes through in seconds like all the others short of RK and I leave with my lower.

Now I know its RK and not the ATF denying me. Most of you guys don’t have this issue. So why should you care? Ill tell you. At Rural King they lead you to believe you are completing a 4473. You aren’t. You are completing a Rural King pre-screen, which when passed, seamlessly forwards the data to ATF. Make no mistake, they saved that data. I know FFL requires some data to be retained but I believe this is above and beyond that. They denied me based on information retained from several years ago they had saved and due to store policy. The ATF never got that 4473 to decide on because RK never passed it on. Then they tell me to my face the ATF denied me. I got RK denied not ATF denied.

If you don’t want all your information saved in a database for Rural King to loose for all of eternity you maybe shouldn’t buy a gun there. They are all mostly 10-20% overpriced anyway.

It is true that if you are ever denied at RK you can NEVER buy another firearm from there. Their policy on it is so disconnected from reality it cannot be worked with or moved beyond. Its just a big pile of stupid keeping me from saving $60 on a lower. Should have grabbed a couple at the 1500.

I can NOT Confirm or DENY your Facts. I've never had a Felony or ever been Denied. Any gun purchase by me at RK has been seamless. I will say they are Based in Illinois (about as Gun Unfriendly as you can get) and seem to Follow Illinois Law NOT Indiana Law. I'm continually reminding them that I do NOT need a FOID Card for Purchase. I have found their on-line purchases to be cheaper or similar to going Price. I am NOT for RK having a Data Base of INFO that they retain. Someone with further knowledge needs to enlighten us. Thanks for the Post

 

[marvin02]

Looks like an FFL is required to maintain your 4473 for 20 years if a sale is made and 5 years if no sale:

How long are licensees required to maintain ATF Forms 4473? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Licensees shall retain each Form 4473 until business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on paper, or in an electronic alternate method approved by the Director, at the business premises readily accessible for inspection under this part. Paper forms over 20 years of age may be stored at...

www.atf.gov

Nothing says they can't maintain them longer. Whether or not they refer to their own records before submitting to the ATF is another matter and with a sample size of one it's not conclusive that they do.

Sorry about your bad experience, but no one should be shocked that an FFL had previous 4473s, they are required to keep them.

 

[Slapstick]

1) Rural King uses a in house program called AVENA to complete the 4473. You fill out the form and the program checks to see if you or anyone at your current address has been denied a sale at any Rural King. If so the program stops the sale and will not allow the clerk to even contact NICS to run a back ground check. Again it's an internal program. From Rural King's point of view it helps stop straw sales or selling to a prohibited person. Helps keep the ATF off their backs and from being sued.

You are in fact filling out your portion of the 4473, the program just checks to see if you ever been denied at a Rual king. It's not a pre-screen.

2) if you were ever denied a sale at Rural King you have to go through their Firearms compliance department at Corporate to get it cleared up. Not hard to do but it does take some leg work on your part.

3) You either misunderstood the clerk you spoke with or he's doesn't understand the procedure to get it cleared up. I think the clerk should have explained it better and what he should have told you that since you were previously denied you are locked out of purchasing a firearm at Rual King only until you contacted Corprorate to get it taken care of. (don't get to mad at the guy who has no say so on store policy and doesn't make much money). There a sheet that's printed out that has the number on it for you to call and he should have given that to you. A lot of people get angry and throw that away so if you didn't get it or threw it away just contact the store and ask for the manager in charge of the gun barn explain the situation and they can get it for you.

4) A 4473 is the form that's kept at the store for the firearms transaction. It is NOT sent to the ATF. The background check is the only thing that a Government agency is involved with and that's the FBI that does it not the ATF. The only time the ATF is notified is if you buy 2 or more handguns in a 5 day peroid then a from 3310 is submitted. (some border States have to that for long guns as well.) If an FFL goes out of business then any 4473's that are less than 20 years old have to be sent to the ATF. So, every gun store you bought from in the past 20 years has your info just like rural King.

You're going to find that most Big Box stores operate this way, smaller shops not so much. It's a good argument for dealing with smaller shop and getting to the people that run them.

 

[MrSmitty]

I was recently delayed, then denied, by RK, I wrote the FBI/NICS, they told methat my UPIN was not properly entered by the RK employee, haven't been back but if I find something there I like I might try again....I did receive a letter fro NICS saying that I was GTG.....

 

[Bigtanker]

It might just be that RK location. I have a relative go through the exact same thing. See below.

Expungement help

I have an acquaintance that had a 40+ year old felony expunged a few years ago. He was able to get his IN LTCH. He has a letter from the FBI stating that he's ok to buy a firearm. (What exactly this letter says I'm not sure). Problem is he keeps getting denied from the NICS check. He goes...

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[Slapstick]

I was recently delayed, then denied, by RK, I wrote the FBI/NICS, they told methat my UPIN was not properly entered by the RK employee, haven't been back but if I find something there I like I might try again....I did receive a letter fro NICS saying that I was GTG.....

If you think you may ever want to buy a firearm in the future from any Rural King I would suggest you do the following. Take the letter from the FBI stating that the matter is cleared up back to the store that denied the purchase. Ask to speak with the manager of the Gun Barn and explain to them what happened, give them a copy of the letter and ask that they fax it to the firearms compliance department and have the block removed.

Since Rural King uses an electronic system once you are denied then the system will prevent you from purchasing a firearm at all Rural King stores until the block is removed. Not sure why they require you to go back to the original store but most of the time they do. It might have something to do with the letter from the FBI stating that specific sale at that specific store. under the NICS transaction number.

I do know that the way the system is set up one store CAN NOT look up the firearms records from another store as to who purchased a firearm, who got denied or the NICS transaction number so maybe that's part of the reason as well. The only time one store will find out that the person is blocked is after that person fills out thier portion of the 4473 and system blocks the sale based on name or address.

 

[CTBay]

They do not clear it up. I called all the way up and got tough titty for a response. They said the ATF has to approve the denial from years ago. Thats not a thing the ATF does. Its the FBI, not the ATF, so I cannot even get a knowledgeable person to discuss it with and they were supposedly top dog.

Maybe they should. Maybe they can. They CHOOSE not to.

The program “just checks to see” but its “not a pre-screen”. Come on now, thats the definition of a prescreen. Its a check and a criteria that isn’t required by law. Its extra. I would pass on the extra even if I wasn’t being forced to.

I will admit I was a jerk on the phone and I know that makes people not want to help me. It was some woman in an office far away I got after thirty phone calls and phone mazes. If she said she cleared it up I still wouldn’t buy there so that wasn’t the goal. I wanted verification that what was provided as a reason was a LIE. I wanted to hear from someone that RK denied me and not the Government.

Denying people at the counter, then prescreening them, then denying them based on the prescreen, Then telling them NCI.. NIC… the background check thing denied them (A LIE), is total BS. Bad business.

Lots of people are erroneously denied. Its not easy to even see the record to know why, let alone try to correct it. Adding a layer of prescreen with elevated criteria, hiding it, lying about it. Not helping anything. If they are worried about getting sued they should stop doing that.

 

[1nderbeard]

Your personal information is stored for eternity every time you do anything with serialized firearms/silencers.
It sounds like you've invested a lot of personal energy and emotion in this, for the purpose of trying to catch some poor phone operator in a lie (using your own words).
Move on, and shop small local LGS. RK is a great retail spot, but I wouldn't buy firearms at any big box when there are plenty of small business alternatives.
Hope you have a good day.

 

[manifest destiny]

1) Rural King uses a in house program called AVENA to complete the 4473. You fill out the form and the program checks to see if you or anyone at your current address has been denied a sale at any Rural King.

WTF?

 

[Slapstick]

WTF?

Yep, it will block a sale for that address as well as on the persons name. Potential straw sale. Big box stores really do try to make policies that keep the Feds off their backs even if it means a few less customers.

Gun and ammo sales across 130+ stores is a lot of profit for Rural King and they don't want any more scrutiny than necessary and do their best to avoid a store losing their FFL. Think about it, lose a few customers because they don't like a policy or lose millions in profits a year. Which would you chose?

 

[WebSnyper]

Yep, it will block a sale for that address as well as on the persons name. Potential straw sale. Big box stores really do try to make policies that keep the Feds off their backs even if it means a few less customers.

Gun and ammo sales across 130+ stores is a lot of profit for Rural King and they don't want any more scrutiny than necessary and do their best to avoid a store losing their FFL. Think about it, lose a few customers because they don't like a policy or lose millions in profits a year. Which would you chose?

So, if the person who previously lived at your address, and happened to try and buy a gun at RK and got denied (yes, quite a set of coincidences), then you're SOL?

 

[Slapstick]

So, if the person who previously lived at your address, and happened to try and buy a gun at RK and got denied (yes, quite a set of coincidences), then you're SOL?

No. It happens. Most of the time a simple phone call to the firearms compliance office will get it cleared up with minimum fuss. I've seen people do while they were at the counter, took a few minutes, they got it cleared up and were able to proceed.

 

[DadSmith]

Yep, it will block a sale for that address as well as on the persons name. Potential straw sale. Big box stores really do try to make policies that keep the Feds off their backs even if it means a few less customers.

Gun and ammo sales across 130+ stores is a lot of profit for Rural King and they don't want any more scrutiny than necessary and do their best to avoid a store losing their FFL. Think about it, lose a few customers because they don't like a policy or lose millions in profits a year. Which would you chose?

So if a person rents an apartment or home that the previous tenant tried to buy and was denied you will be denied?

 

[Slapstick]

So if a person rents an apartment or home that the previous tenant tried to buy and was denied you will be denied?

Rural King's system will prevent the sale until you get it cleared up with firearms compliance. It's set up that way to prevent straw sales. The system flags the form after the 2nd attempt by the customer and will not allow further processing, no completion of the 4473, no NICS check. It's only applicable to Rural King stores, you're free to purchase from any other retailer. Denials come from NICS not Rural King.

 

[bobzilla]

Rural King's system will prevent the sale until you get it cleared up with firearms compliance. It's set up that way to prevent straw sales. The system flags the form after the 2nd attempt by the customer and will not allow further processing, no completion of the 4473, no NICS check. It's only applicable to Rural King stores, you're free to purchase from any other retailer. Denials come from NICS not Rural King.

Do you ever feel like you’re repeating yourself a lot? You are providing good information to a lot of people. Thank you.

 

[NHT3]

Yep, it will block a sale for that address as well as on the persons name. Potential straw sale. Big box stores really do try to make policies that keep the Feds off their backs even if it means a few less customers.

Gun and ammo sales across 130+ stores is a lot of profit for Rural King and they don't want any more scrutiny than necessary and do their best to avoid a store losing their FFL. Think about it, lose a few customers because they don't like a policy or lose millions in profits a year. Which would you chose?

No tears for RK and I'll never buy anything else from them.. If someone lies on the 4473 and gets approved I can't see how RK is held responsible, ATF doesn't have a track record of holding known felons responsible..
NICS seldom prosecutes those that are proven to lie on the form. Simple, just don't shop there. Give the local guy a chance for your business even if it's a few more bucks.

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-18-440

 

[ditcherman]

you get it cleared up with firearms compliance.

Where are we living again?

It's set up that way to prevent straw sales.

It’s not their job to prevent straw sales.

you're free to purchase from any other retailer.

I think I will. I hate the trigger locks anyway.
But sincerely, thank you for the clear info.

 

[Slapstick]

Where are we living again?

It’s not their job to prevent straw sales.

I think I will. I hate the trigger locks anyway.
But sincerely, thank you for the clear info.

1) We are living in a time when gun control groups and shady lawyers are willing to sue at the drop of a hat and the Feds are more than willing to fine and pull your FFL over the slightest mistake or infraction. Remember one prong of the "war on guns" is go after the seller. All stores I know, big box and smaller, are being more cautious to avoid potential problems to keep their FFL's.

2) It is the FFL's job to prevent straw sales when ever possible. If your store has an unusually high number of proven straw sales you can expect a visit from the ATF that may lead to a fine or losing your FFL. It's easier for them to go after the store than it is the the person doing the straw buys.

3) Shopping at a smaller LGS has it's advantages. You may pay a bit more but getting to know the people that work there usually means better service and they can be more flexible with their policies, especially if your a regular costumer who's not a pain to deal with.

 

[ditcherman]

1) We are living in a time when gun control groups and shady lawyers are willing to sue at the drop of a hat and the Feds are more than willing to fine and pull your FFL over the slightest mistake or infraction. Remember one prong of the "war on guns" is go after the seller. All stores I know, big box and smaller, are being more cautious to avoid potential problems to keep their FFL's.

2) It is the FFL's job to prevent straw sales when ever possible. If your store has an unusually high number of proven straw sales you can expect a visit from the ATF that may lead to a fine or losing your FFL. It's easier for them to go after the store than it is the the person doing the straw buys.

3) Shopping at a smaller LGS has it's advantages. You may pay a bit more but getting to know the people that work there usually means better service and they can be more flexible with their policies, especially if your a regular costumer who's not a pain to deal with.

Absolutely on board with your number 3! Years ago paid $200 more for a gun at my LGS, happened to walk in to RK and see it for less, and decided that I would do it again, and have (assuming here, I don’t really check RK but I know they have great prices).

As for 1 and 2, it just sounds like another step towards Orwellian-ism. Or maybe there’s a better word, just overall control.
They don’t have to be all “Don’s Guns” about it, but they also don’t have to act they’re an arm of the fed.
I get it though, corporate leadership.

There’s some fine lines in there as far as the ffl’s job to prevent wrongful sales. It’s kind of like paying taxes. You can be super “careful” and not take any deductions and make sure to pay plenty, or you can play by the rules they have laid out without crossing them. I just see them as being super careful overly cautious.

It’s great we have choices.