Question for you folks reloading the 45-70 1.8 inch cartridges for Indiana deer

[Flinttim]

I've read some of the threads on this but have a question. If a fellow was starting from scratch, no gun, no reloading dies no nothing and was wanting to do reloads using black powder , could you just buy a 45-60 set of dies and brass and use those for a "legal" 45-70 ? What I have in mind is a traditional type gun like a Uberti or Pedersoli, say a rolling block, and build BP loads that would be legal for Indiana deer ? The 45-60 brass would be closer to the 1.8 and some trimming gets it down to "legal", using the 45-60 dies does not necessitate cutting down the crimp die. I've been building and shooting BP rifles for nearly 35 years and just like BP and always have a well stocked magazine of the stuff in all granulations. Am I missing anything here ?

 

[Broom_jm]

That sounds like more of a question for the DNR, but it basically boils down to this: If you shoot a bullet that is at least .357" in diameter, from a case that is no longer than 1.800" long, yer good to go. Sounds like your plan would work just fine.

 

[djones]

I don't think that you are missing anything. I wouldn't buy 45-60 dies due to cost but there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

I have used my full length sizing die to crimp also if you remove the decapping pin. With the unaltered rcbs cowboy dies I can load 1.8-2.1" brass in 45-70.

I took one doe this year with this load out of a Marlin 1895gs:

 

[Flinttim]

I have only priced Lee dies at this point and the 60s are $5 higher. If I ever decided to reload a standard 45-70, a set of dies would fairly inexpensive to add to my selection. For too many years it's bothered me that with all the various wildcats that are legal the 45-70 or the 30-30 are still forbidden. They should have added the 45-70 using BP long ago, so the plan is to come up with one that meets their rules.Some years back I built a 50 caliber flintlock bullet gun with a 1-20 twist that propels a 385 gr bullet using 60 grs of 3fggg and it's cleanly harvested many a deer so I'm guessing that same 60grs would launch a 45 caliber bullet just fine.Oh and one more question........are there lead bullet molds or bullets that would make the overall cartridge length a little close to the 45-70 to fill the chamber a bit more.....all this of course without boosting pressures to much which with BP I doubt it would be an issue.

 

[djones]

I have never had much luck loading cast bullets with Lee dies. They seem to be made for jacketed. The expander never can expand enough and the bullet seating die deforms the noses. You can open up the lees but I traded off mine instead for the rcbs cowboy dies.

Maybe the Lee 45-60 dies will be setup for cast. Good luck

 

[Sirshredalot]

I have never had much luck loading cast bullets with Lee dies. They seem to be made for jacketed. The expander never can expand enough and the bullet seating die deforms the noses. You can open up the lees but I traded off mine instead for the rcbs cowboy dies.

Maybe the Lee 45-60 dies will be setup for cast. Good luck

I use Lee dies for all of my 45-70 loading....including 1.8" with cast bullets....Ive never had the seating die deform a bullet, but I have never loaded a very wide meplat bullet...just the typical 405's, and 300's
I also expand with my lee universal expanding die....no problems at all....can actually expand too far and the bullet will drop in the case if improperly adjusted.

$.02...YMMV
God bless
-Shred

 

[17 squirrel]

I have only priced Lee dies at this point and the 60s are $5 higher. If I ever decided to reload a standard 45-70, a set of dies would fairly inexpensive to add to my selection. For too many years it's bothered me that with all the various wildcats that are legal the 45-70 or the 30-30 are still forbidden. They should have added the 45-70 using BP long ago, so the plan is to come up with one that meets their rules.Some years back I built a 50 caliber flintlock bullet gun with a 1-20 twist that propels a 385 gr bullet using 60 grs of 3fggg and it's cleanly harvested many a deer so I'm guessing that same 60grs would launch a 45 caliber bullet just fine.Oh and one more question........are there lead bullet molds or bullets that would make the overall cartridge length a little close to the 45-70 to fill the chamber a bit more.....all this of course without boosting pressures to much which with BP I doubt it would be an issue.

if you are looking into loading longer bullets you will have to go heavier, Look at bullet molds meant for BPCR shooting with molds from Lyman, RCBS, Saeco and so on.
about the heaviest that's over the counter would be a Postell style bullet, It will come in around 520 grains. if you are curious let me know and I can send you some to try, what I have easily available is a Steve Brooks mold the drops a 20 to 1 bullet at .459 and a few Lyman and Saeco molds but I don't remember what they drop. I can send you a handful that have been lubed or not been lubed if you wish. I can look and see if I have any bullets from the Lyman or saeco molds that I have.
I will add that if the Postells are loaded in normal sized 45-70 cases they will NOT load through the loading door in any Browning lever action rifles. you can drop them in the chamber and they will work. When you go heavy like that with some chambers you have to be careful of the size diameter of the bullet nose. it can end up as a bore rider and the will not load with a dirty chamber, more so with black powder.

 

[djones]

I use Lee dies for all of my 45-70 loading....including 1.8" with cast bullets....Ive never had the seating die deform a bullet, but I have never loaded a very wide meplat bullet...just the typical 405's, and 300's
I also expand with my lee universal expanding die....no problems at all....can actually expand too far and the bullet will drop in the case if improperly adjusted.

$.02...YMMV
God bless
-Shred

hey Shred,

I am a fat meplat kind of guy. I also shoot fat (large diameter) bullets. In my 45-70 I size to 0.460ish and the Lee dies would put a ring about 0.1" up from the case mouth. On my 35 Remington sized to 0.361" I also get deformation of the bullet just ahead of the case mouth.

The only dies from Lee that haven't given me trouble were some 375 Winchester dies using 0.380" diameter bullets. I thought for sure they would get shaved down since it is 0.005" over nominal.

Good luck to the OP and let me know if you need any load data for smokeless. Have fun and keep us up to date on your progress.

David

 

[17 squirrel]

David, what mold or molds are you using that you size down to .460 ?
And what are you using to size .460 ish please ????

 

[Flinttim]

I need to start looking for a suitable candidate for such an endeavor. I've pretty much ruled out Pedersoli. Their pricing is a bit steep for even me. The lower end Uberti line shows some promise. I done some serious looking at the H&R Buffalo Classic. but as some of you already know there was not many for sale, basically none. I called H&R to ask if they even still make them. The lady on the phone told me that are they no longer made "we don't make any single shots anymore". Just how many brands has the Freedom group destroyed ? Geez. Are we sure that it's not owned by Bloomberg and he's doing this on purpose ? When the lady told me the status of single shots I told her they might want to update their website. She told me they "were looking into that". I'll be honest, I think she was the only person in the building.

 

[djones]

David, what mold or molds are you using that you size down to .460 ?
And what are you using to size .460 ish please ????

Molds are NOE 460-315 RF, NOE 460-405 RF, NOE 460-405 RF HP, Accurate 46-430VG

Sizer is an old star nose first push through.

 

[17 squirrel]

Ahhh.. I was wondering if and what lube sizer you were using. I believe unless you open up a .459 with Lyman or rcbs die, Saeco .460 is about it. That's what I use to lube my .459 bullets.. And the offer stands, if you want to try some postells please let me know and I'll send you a some of what I have cast..

 

[Flinttim]

I appreciate the offer and may do that but first I need to locate a candidate gun.

 

[Flinttim]

Well, you know what they say about "best laid plans " ? I scanned the Internet and all the local gun shops for a single shot candidate and of course found none. The last shop I checked was Bite the Bullet here and Mark told me that the CVA guns were scarce , likely due to deer season and Christmas. He then asked me if I was set on a single shot and when I said not necessarily he said, "let's go upstairs" Heck I didn't even know there was an upstairs. There he showed me a 1895 Marlin in 45-70 , 22 inch barrel. Used gun but not used much if at all. Bore was pristine as was the rest of it.I had already read up on the problems of "Remlins" but I must have found one somebody went above and beyond on. Wood to metal fit is perfect, beautiful walnut with some pretty grain, bluing (and it is real blue)and it cycles flawlessly. It appears the sights have not been moved.Checkering is crisp, so much so I don't think it's pressed in, but if it is it's nice.So anyway you can guess the rest. I won't reload with BP on this one, too hard to keep the action clean. Picked up some dies while there and Midway has on the way a mold, factory crimp die, 460 S&W trimmer and guage, and a sizing die. Got a ox of Winchester cartidges at the shop too to play with and generate some cases. Primers and 3031 in the reloading cabinet so will start working on reloads as time allows(and when the order gets here,Sizing die is backordered) Perusing the Internet for some new sights too, Peeps of some sort, the eyes are now 63 yrs old and open sights ........not so much.I've been writing down some of the various recipes for the shortened 1.8 cases............and we wait.

 

[djones]

I am glad you found a rifle. PM me your email address and I can send you various 1.8" data I have. All of my work has been done in Marlins so it should work good for you.

David

 

[Flinttim]

Sent David, thanks bunches

 

[BigMatt]

DJones is a good guy...

 

[Flinttim]

Well the needed supplies are coming in.My bullet sizer and luber was B/O, but yesterday the mold, FCD, and 460 S&W trimmer came in. I've never trimmed anything as big as a 45 so I found the only cutter I had for the trimmer is too small so Midway has a bigger cutter on the way. One question on the FCD . I could PM David but thought others could use the info. When you shorten the die .305. you are taking it off the very bottom, right where it's stamped "45-70" ? The main goal allowing the shell holder to go higher ?

 

[17 squirrel]

It comes off the bottom of the die, the opening where the case enters the die.

What Lube- sizer are you looking at buying ?

 

[Flinttim]

I have a Lee on backorder