PPD Pulled A Gun On Me Today...

[SavageEagle]

This.....

Still have those smoke bombs upstairs Ryan?

Got one up there and two in the BoB. The one I keep out is no longer for defense though. I have a "special" purpose in mind for it.

 

[Fargo]

Ok so say (hypothetically) that it was OK for the cop to point the gun at you to prevent you from running. Could the cop shoot you for running away? I'd have to say "no".

Here is the law on deadly force for police:



So, the cop CAN'T use deadly force to prevent some from just running away IN GENERAL. If he can't just shoot you because you are running away then what's the point of pointing his gun as a deterrent to running away? Besides the SCOTUS has said that "running away" isn't defacto admission of guilt.

I believe it is less about keeping you from running away and more about not getting shot by the felon you are trying to apprehend.

Exactly. That's the point. They didn't have very much info to go on. Just because someone calls in a crime doesn't mean there is a crime. If someone calls in a MWAG does that mean the cops should hold you at gun-point face down until they verify that you didn't intend to commit a crime? I think I remember a cop or two here saying that was exactly what they would do & MANY other examples of that happening.

Without some REASONABLE SUSPICION of a crime, the police can't JUST put you on the ground at gun point. Some of them may want you to think that they can but that's not right (as in the "not good" sense of the word) whether the courts agree with that or not. If we allow that to happen without a word then we deserve everything that happens to us.

"Reasonable suspicion" is a legal term of art and is a very low standard to meet. Generally, a named 911 caller giving specifics of an alleged crime has been held to meet it. Nevermind the ladder over the fence, guy with a gun, and rash of recent burglaries at the storage facility.

Would you be OK with the cop, just driving by & seeing you unloading your own storage unit with a gun on your side, putting you on the ground at gun point? If not (& I would hope you wouldn't be OK with that) then what's the difference between that & some anonymous (or not) person calling in to say that you were commiting a crime? None. Without a little more evidence or PC the the cops shouldn't assume you are guilty of a crime.

It is very different. The cops act with the info they have. 911 of a burglary in progress is very different than seeing a guy unloading his unit

So what did running your ID tell him? That you were who you said you were & that you didn't have any warrants? So? That doesn't tell him that you "couldn't have turned criminal". Did he verify that you ACTUALLY RENTED the storage unit? Unless you left that part out then it doesn't sound like it.

I'm confused. So you are saying the cops shouldn't run anybody for warrants, especially suspects?

I don't know about you but I think I would much prefer the cop illegally search my vehicle than to put me on the ground with a gun to my head.

Me too, but I don't see what that has to do with this situation.

No I think what most are saying is that the standard of what some cops have for the term "suspected" should be higher. At least that's what I'm saying.

Then contact your legislators. They are the only ones you have any control over who can change that.

Define "jack-booted". If you define "jack-booted" differently than them holding a loaded gun to your head to make you fearful enough for your life that you felt you had to comply then I really don't know what to say. If they had just walked up & "politely" asked you to get on the ground because they somehow "suspected" you of a crime (that you didn't commit) would you have complied so willingly or did you do it because you thought they were going to shoot you in the head if you didn't? That, my friend, IS the definition of "jack-booted".

Holding openly armed felony suspects at gunpoint is per se "jackbooted"? You would have really hated the law on felony use of force as it read from the time of this country's founding up until Tennesse v Garner.

So you think it's completely reasonable to point a firearm at someone for no other reason than "some" person called in & said that they "thought" someone was breaking into a STORAGE UNIT (not a person's home) when they had NO OTHER EVIDENCE of a crime other than that "some person's" call. You think that's NOT violating someone's civil rights?! To threaten them with DEATH with no other evidence whatsoever? (And unless you're just bluffing when you pointed your loaded gun at their head, that's exactly what it was) REALLY?????

I've addressed that above. You are being a bit selective in your facts


Best,

Joe

 

[SavageEagle]

So what did running your ID tell him? That you were who you said you were & that you didn't have any warrants? So? That doesn't tell him that you "couldn't have turned criminal". Did he verify that you ACTUALLY RENTED the storage unit? Unless you left that part out then it doesn't sound like it.

That I'm a real turd and not worth squishing into the ground. J/K No, seriously, that I didn't have any warrants, I am who my ID says I am, and that I wasn't lying when I said I rent the unit. All of this was confirmed by the neighbors, the owner of the complex, and the record check.

I don't know about you but I think I would much prefer the cop illegally search my vehicle than to put me on the ground with a gun to my head.

That would be even worse. What if I did have a joint sitting in the open ashtray and he seen it when he returned my pistol to my truck? Should I have allowed him to set the pistol in the truck? No. Did I have a problem with it? No.

I would much rather get dirty on the ground than be illegally searched. THAT would be giving up my rights.

If you believe that then I've got some ocean front property in Nebraska to sell you.

Well you better start digging a REALLY big canal from the Ocean to some property you're about to buy in Nebraska.

The reason I was cuffed was because I was the guy actually IN the storage unit that was reportedly being burglarized. The others were not cuffed because they were on the outside of the fence talking with the officer explaining the situation.

Did I enjoy being cuffed? No. Did I understand why they did it? Yes.

No I think what most are saying is that the standard of what some cops have for the term "suspected" should be higher. At least that's what I'm saying.

That probably true in most cases, but I don't think it applies here. If I were an officer in his position I would have handled it pretty much the same. Except for the whole gun on me the entire time part.

Define "jack-booted". If you define "jack-booted" differently than them holding a loaded gun to your head to make you fearful enough for your life that you felt you had to comply then I really don't know what to say. If they had just walked up & "politely" asked you to get on the ground because they somehow "suspected" you of a crime (that you didn't commit) would you have complied so willingly or did you do it because you thought they were going to shoot you in the head if you didn't? That, my friend, IS the definition of "jack-booted".

That's not quite right. My definition is when they kick and beat the outta you when you've done nothing wrong. Hence the term "Jack-boot" and it's origins.

So now we find that those particular police officers were involved in some sort of intimidation or harrassment because you showed that their buddy lied in court...to the point that you now feel uncomfortable standing up or your rights... Sounds like their tactics were successful. They showed you to fight the system, didn't they?

Not exactly. What these others officers from the past did was wrong. The short full story was that I accidentally cut off a Marion County Sheriff on 465. He was off duty in his personal car waving something shiny and something that looked like a gun. I wasn't stopping for that so I ran from him. He chased me down 465 and 70 into Plainfield where he eventually cornered me at a stop sign between him and a truck. He jumped out waving a badge and a gun screaming "You know wtf these are???" I was like, uh yea, maniac. PPD was called after the PFD called them (we were out front of the station and they came out seeing this freak freaking out). PPD Officer tried to say he clocked me at 75 in a 20 and then said he showed up after the fact. I did NOT want that to happen as I wanted to plead my case. I didn't get to and I got harassed afterward.

Was it right? No. Did I learn to fight the system from the experience? No. I learned that long ago. Did I ever feel uncomfortable standing up for my rights? NO.

 

[semperfi211]

Oops. Sorry. I meant to put up a picture of the ones you like to wear.....HERE! I found them!

I think they sell those at the Lions Den with a set of handcuffs. Not for law enforcement use though.

 

[Old Greg]

Sounds like you reacted in the right way. It's nice to see someone who doesn't change their opinion of cops because they are doing their jobs. People forget about the environment law enforcement officers work in and how it affects them. I try to teach my inner-city high school students this, but they hate law enforcement...

 

[Tactical Dave]

If it was me I could understand him pulling oon me if he saw the gun, could then ask me to remove it with my left hand (I am right handed), put it on the ground and step away, then I am un armed could keep me at a distance from him and the gun and would then not have to keep the gun pointed at me.

All cops are different though.

I think a nice call to the supervisor asking about their policy might shed some light on it.

I was invloved in a situation with IMPD once downtown and the Supervisor was called out and he was really cool even before it was found I was not a theif. He asked to search my trunk because these people were going nuts and I said yes because I wanted to make these people look bad honestly..... he told me up front that I did not have to because they did not suspect me but I did it any way.

A lot of people on here are internet tuff guy's and give Ranger a hard time, talk to him in person and I am sure you will like him. It's a free country, he can say or do what he want's...... he is more then willing to suffer and consiquences but belives in how he feels and I have no problem with that.

 

[longbow]

Dash video?

Make a request

 

[E5RANGER375]

You know it. We never forget ANYthing. Ever.


And in this case, I have help from a specialized piece of electronic equipment we like to call a "server" that performs regular "backups" in case any of the typical women here were to forget.

THATS FOR DAMN SURE. lol why buy a video camera when you have a wife???

 

[Tactical Dave]

why buy a video camera when you have a wife???

 

[finity]

I believe it is less about keeping you from running away and more about not getting shot by the felon you are trying to apprehend.

Well, actually, I was responding to the person who said the cop was using his gun as a deterrent to prevent him from running away.

Aside from a threat of SBI or death to them or a third party a cop can't use deadly force to arrest you or to prevent you from escaping. So unless the cop has reason to believe that the person poses a threat they can't use deadly force.

"Reasonable suspicion" is a legal term of art and is a very low standard to meet. Generally, a named 911 caller giving specifics of an alleged crime has been held to meet it. Nevermind the ladder over the fence, guy with a gun, and rash of recent burglaries at the storage facility.

Point taken but the caller has to be named or some other indications must be presented to verify specific knowledge of the crime by the informant. In Florida v. J.L. the court said that just because a caller turns out to be correct about specific details of a person's description doesn't mean that police can rely solely on that call as a basis to provide reasonable suspicion for a search of the person or their belongings. If they can't use it for a search then I can't see how they can use it as a basis for "reasonable force" to effect an arrest or prevent escape, namely pointing a gun at SE without some other indication that he was involved in a crime.

The ladder over the fence doesn't meet the requirements because SE had a truck he was loading. He couldn't carry the truck over the fence on a ladder could he? A person OC'ing a gun alone is not indication of a crime that requires an armed response. If so then a lot of people here better watch out. A past history of burglaries is reason to investigate a "suspicious person" call but hardly evidence for an armed response.

I'm sure that anything COULD be used as an excuse to take whatever action the police deem as "necessary" but I'd hope they could use a little more common sense than that.

Now, if the cop would have received the call & during the initial investigation had seen an armed SE crawling over the fence with stuff from an obviously broken into storage shed then, yeah, I could see the need for a little more aggressive action by the police. Other than a caller who gave no details or specifics other than the correct description of a person who could have been seen by anybody in the act of doing an otherwise completely ordinary & legal act (unloading a shed into a truck), to me, there wasn't a reliable indication of a crime being committed.

It is very different. The cops act with the info they have. 911 of a burglary in progress is very different than seeing a guy unloading his unit

And in this case they didn't really have any better or more specific info than they would have had than if they just drove by & saw him. I again use the example of a MWAG call. Should the cops reasonably be able to respond with a threat of deadly force to a report solely of a MWAG & does it make any difference if they get a call from someone or they see it themselves?

I'm confused. So you are saying the cops shouldn't run anybody for warrants, especially suspects?

No. I'm saying that the purpose behind running an ID check in the present case should be more informative than "are you who you say you are?" Until SE's response above I didn't know that they contacted the owner of the storage company & ascertained the ID of the person who rented the unit.

In this case running his ID was appropriate.

Me too, but I don't see what that has to do with this situation.

Because SE said he didn't feel his rights were violated because "He didn't search me, it was a simple pant down. He never even searched my truck." I was just pointing out the glaring inconsistency in logic.

Holding openly armed felony suspects at gunpoint is per se "jackbooted"? You would have really hated the law on felony use of force as it read from the time of this country's founding up until Tennesse v Garner.

Yes I probably would have hated it. It just shows that eventually the courts get it right.

You are being a bit selective in your facts.

Sorry, I don't see it that way.

The fact is that in SE's case SOMEONE called in a burglary on just a suspicion. There was no REAL evidence that SE was breaking in to a unit.

No one saw him climb over the fence.

No one saw him break the lock on the front gate.

No one saw him break the lock or door on the unit.

No one saw him do ANYTHING illegal.

The ONLY THING they saw was SE loading a truck with items out of a unit while being armed.

I think it's interesting that many of the same people who say that a "civilian" will go to jail for using reasonable force to get their stuff back when they actually saw the person stealing it (even though it's OK by law) think it's A-OK for a cop to put someone on the ground with a gun to their head on the most flimsy circumstantial evidence.

We do get what we deserve I guess.

 

[bytecafe]

Headed out to shoot last saturday to meet some friends for fun under the sun with gun powder. It turns out that I was having to much fun, I was speeding. The bad part, I got caught. Well, just about the time the officer approaches on the drivers side of my SUV he spots all the weapons cases, ammo cans, tarps, rope, boxes, cooler, etc. and pulls out his sidearm and orders me to put my hand in view (they were already on the dash as I had my sidearm in reach.

Mr. Friendly orders me out of the car and starts asking several questions, I in turn satified his Q&A session. Then we got to talking about where I was headed and whos property I was going to be shooting on. I told him and invited him to come out. He saw my AR's along with other items and we started talking about his AR. He had some issues and questions. I informed him that I was an Armory and could probably help with the problem. We get into our vehicles and go to the next exit to meet up and review his AR. The problem was with his ejector or the bolt carrier, so I invited him to join us on the range when he got off in a couple hours.

Later that day my new friend shows up and shoots with us. I asked him if he had heard about Ingo and suggested that he come to the AR build to learn more about the weapon that he might have to rely on.

cheers

 

[pig957]

It's always a GOOd day when no one goes to jail or the morgue!

 

[public servant]

It's always a [strike]GOOd[/strike] boring day when no one goes to jail or the morgue!

Fixed it for you.

 

[SavageEagle]

Sorry guys, I lied about getting out to talk to the Super today. I've been busy building a computer for someone. Money before... uh... whatever you wanna call this. I'll get out there tomorrow when I finish this stuff.

Dash video?

Make a request

Cars weren't near me. No video to be had. Where my storage unit is would be hard to get a cruiser to without coming into the complex. His backup was blocking the entrance on the other side of the buildings, so no video.

Fixed it for you.

I'm thinking you didn't WANT to use the purple text. You just like hauling people to jail dontcha?

 

[public servant]

I'm thinking you didn't WANT to use the purple text. You just like hauling people to jail dontcha?

Job security. It's not like I'm going to go out and get a *real* job.

 

[smoking357]

So, I'm sitting out at my storage unit today just minding my own, loading up my truck with boxes, strapping down the tarp before the rain hits. I get everything I can loaded up and I'm strapping down the last 4 bungees in the back when I hear someone coming up to my left.

What time did this occur?

 

[SavageEagle]

Not EXACTLY sure, but I think around 8pm. It wasn't completely dark, but the sun was going down and the rain was about to let loose. That's why I was out there when I was hurrying like I was throwing stuff under the tarp.

Don't twist the facts of this situation like you were in other threads.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

What is the world coming to?

These days all it takes is for one Nervous Nancy to misread the situation, and your in the dirt with a gun to your head? Nice as the officer may have been, he could have approached the situation with a LITTLE more aplomb.

 

[SavageEagle]

What is the world coming to?

These days all it takes is for one Nervous Nancy to misread the situation, and your in the dirt with a gun to your head? Nice as the officer may have been, he could have approached the situation with a LITTLE more aplomb.

And I completely agree. They didn't have to go all Lethal on me. However, I was glad that they did show up to investigate. That could have been a real robber hauling away my stuff.

 

[POC]

I can't believe I missed this thread.......