Pope: Whatever religion works for you, cool

[rambone]

I know you will.

And, as usual, this question is born of ignorance of how certain non-Catholic dogma developed, so I do not mean this question to be confrontational.

So, going back to our moderately sinful Muslim. He dies, but is saved at the last moment. Does he become part of the Elect at that point, or was he all along? Or am I completely confusing your interpretation of the Elect?

Well, the bible says (in multiple places) that God wrote the names of the elect in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. These verses tell us clearly that election was done before any of us existed; the man's destiny was to belong to God. However, until the moment of belief/salvation, he was "dead in sin" and a child of wrath, just like the rest of mankind.

I'm a bit confused why you keep saying moderately sinful. Is that a real thing? The most significant sin of all time was a woman eating fruit. Is that a moderate sin? I don't know what a moderate sin is. Any violation of God's law brings God's complete wrath. Hence, no one approaches except though the covering of Christ.

 

[traderdan]

I do not believe in the "Jesus" defined by the Athanasian Creed. God is eternal, His manifestation in the flesh is not eternal. The Pope is not my "Papa" and as leader of the Catholic (universal) group he will lend his authority to the Antichrist when that time comes. Salvation comes through belief in Jesus, following Him into death, burial and resurrection,THEN living according to the law of the Spirit. Were it not for the real experience of salvation,I too would be agnostic...Many speak loudly of religion and act nothing like Jesus.

 

[T.Lex]

Well, the bible says (in multiple places) that God wrote the names of the elect in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. These verses tell us clearly that election was done before any of us existed; the man's destiny was to belong to God. However, until the moment of belief/salvation, he was "dead in sin" and a child of wrath, just like the rest of mankind.

So Muslims could be part of the elect? And atheists?

It sounds like there's no way to know, while here on earth, who the elect are. Do I have that right?

I'm a bit confused why you keep saying moderately sinful. Is that a real thing?

Sorry, that was just me trying to use some levity - kinda a running joke. I'll stop.

 

[T.Lex]

I do not believe in the "Jesus" defined by the Athanasian Creed.

That trembling you just heard was foszoe's hard drive crashing....

 

[JettaKnight]

Being Baptist, I have an irrational fear of creeds so I had to go look this up.


Does anyone else think of the instructions for the holy hand grenade when reading it? "Three being the number thine did count to..."


Traderdan, are you confusing "catholic" with "Catholic"? We all are of the catholic faith (so true), but the Roman Catholic Church is Catholic. Big difference just from a big C.


And I really don't see what the problem with this creed is; unless you think Christ was made of two separate parts: one human and one divine.

 

[T.Lex]

Being Baptist, I have an irrational fear of creeds ....

Wuss.

 

[foszoe]

That trembling you just heard was foszoe's hard drive crashing....

Well actually the Athanasius Creed contains the filioque so I support the rejection of it or reject the support of it. It was most certainly not written by St Athanasius in the 4th century.

I did feel a tremor in the force though

 

[JettaKnight]

Wuss.

Sorry, no rep available.

 

[rambone]

So Muslims could be part of the elect? And atheists?

It sounds like there's no way to know, while here on earth, who the elect are. Do I have that right?

God draws his elect from many false systems. They will be ex-Muslims and ex-atheists when they die, confessing Jesus as Lord, and only in 20/20 hindsight they will known as the elect.

Yes that is correct about not knowing the elect, since we don't get to read the Book of Life. There are even people claiming the name of Jesus who are not part of the elect.

Sorry, that was just me trying to use some levity - kinda a running joke. I'll stop.

Ahh ok. Haha. Well "moderate sin" seems consistent with Roman Catholic dogma and also seems to fit with your earlier post. You seemed to say that moderate-sinning muslim-turned-Christian sinner could go to Purgatory to be purified, but the terrorist-turned-Christian had "little hope" for Purgatory. This is all a bit mysterious since it does not come from the bible and contradicts a large body of scripture.

Do you break from Roman Catholic dogma on any of these topics? They definitely say there are "venial" and "mortal" sins and that "Purgatory" lasts for different durations for different people.

 

[T.Lex]

God draws his elect from many false systems. They will be ex-Muslims and ex-atheists when they die, confessing Jesus as Lord, and only in 20/20 hindsight they will known as the elect.

Yes that is correct about not knowing the elect, since we don't get to read the Book of Life. There are even people claiming the name of Jesus who are not part of the elect.

That makes sense.

So, do you think there's any obligation, as Christians, to treat everyone with respect? I mean, even the lowliest among them could be among the elect.

Ahh ok. Haha. Well "moderate sin" seems consistent with Roman Catholic dogma and also seems to fit with your earlier post. You seemed to say that moderate-sinning muslim-turned-Christian sinner could go to Purgatory to be purified, but the terrorist-turned-Christian had "little hope" for Purgatory. This is all a bit mysterious since it does not come from the bible and contradicts a large body of scripture.

Do you break from Roman Catholic dogma on any of these topics? They definitely say there are "venial" and "mortal" sins and that "Purgatory" lasts for different durations for different people.

See - I edited out that part of your earlier post. I guess you didn't notice that. I had framework for a response, but decided against ginning up another divisive issue.

Alas, ultimately, that's what you are - a divider. (Or, a re-divider if you're into palindromes.) Its almost like you can't help it.

Plus, I thought we addressed this in the Reformation Day thread. One's view of Purgatory depends much on how one views original sin.

For the sake of brevity, I am Catholic. I believe that not every sin was created equal. I believe Purgatory is different for everyone, because every life - every spiritual journey - is different, and we are judged individually. These matters of faith are also consistent with the Bible.

But then, some people find it easier - and more effective for garnering personal authority - to approach things as either/or, us/them....

 

[historian]

Wuss.

Hey! Even Rocky barely made it in the ring with him and I'm not that fit!

 

[foszoe]

So since Rocky's eventual victory was in the script before the fight, could one say it was predestined?

 

[historian]

So since Rocky's eventual victory was in the script before the fight, could one say it was predestined?

And since Sly wrote it, he had foreknowledge of it!

 

[T.Lex]

So... uh... why did he let Apollo get into the ring with the [strike]Swedish[/strike] Russian dude?

Oh... because his name was Apollo, therefore he was a heathen?

 

[rambone]

That makes sense.

So, do you think there's any obligation, as Christians, to treat everyone with respect? I mean, even the lowliest among them could be among the elect.

We must love everyone, even our enemies. The world would make that out to mean something all inclusive; not opposing false beliefs, and even working to blend them into one system. The biblical model never supports that kind of thing. We must not compromise on the truth.

See - I edited out that part of your earlier post. I guess you didn't notice that. I had framework for a response, but decided against ginning up another divisive issue.

Alas, ultimately, that's what you are - a divider. (Or, a re-divider if you're into palindromes.) Its almost like you can't help it.

Plus, I thought we addressed this in the Reformation Day thread. One's view of Purgatory depends much on how one views original sin.

For the sake of brevity, I am Catholic. I believe that not every sin was created equal. I believe Purgatory is different for everyone, because every life - every spiritual journey - is different, and we are judged individually. These matters of faith are also consistent with the Bible.

But then, some people find it easier - and more effective for garnering personal authority - to approach things as either/or, us/them....

Consider this: our friend PaulF listed some things that he perceives to be bible contradictions, which became stumbling blocks to his faith. You can see a practical reason as to why doctrinal errors, even small ones, are dangerous to the church and to souls. Whatever your position, you can see that errors are harmful, right? That weighs heavily on my heart. Add to that all the biblical commandments about holding fast to sound doctrine, and here I am, blurting out that God isn't going to burn his holy saints in Purgatory. Ahh!

On this issue, the gospel of salvation, I am actually obligated to speak. I might be disobedient to let errant gospels be preached without correction. It is no small matter that we think we are saved by two very different means, going to two very different places, for two very different reasons. I could write up a huge essay on the number of contradictions that Purgatory introduces with the rest of the bible. It is my conviction that it is an errant doctrine, and errors become the pitfalls that keep people from Jesus Christ. I know you disagree with me, but that's what's on my heart.

Jesus said, to a rotten thief who believed at the last minute, "Today you will be with me in Paradise!!!!" Believe in Him and you will be completely forgiven of EVERYTHING. "The blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." No torture required.

 

[Mark 1911]

I could write up a huge essay on the number of contradictions that Purgatory introduces with the rest of the bible. It is my conviction that it is an errant doctrine, and errors become the pitfalls that keep people from Jesus Christ. I know you disagree with me, but that's what's on my heart.

Jesus said, to a rotten thief who believed at the last minute, "Today you will be with me in Paradise!!!!" Believe in Him and you will be completely forgiven of EVERYTHING. "The blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." No torture required.

That the errant thief did not go to Purgatory is not a contradiction of the doctrine. Just because the errant thief went straight to Heaven, not all people do. There are many people who may not go straight to Heaven and yet do not go to Hell. God in his mercy provides a place of final purification. The perceived contradictions you claim, if anything like the example of the errant thief, are only perceived as contradictions when the viewed in light of other erroneous doctrines.

There are many scriptural bases for the doctrine of Purgatory. If you wish, I can continue this later and cite those scriptural bases. Right now I have to catch a train!

 

[IndyDave1776]

Right now I have to catch a train!

So, if we hear about some guy getting dragged down the track by a train, we will know that you didn't work out what you were going to do with it BEFORE you caught it!

 

[PaulF]

I just wanted to post this and this thread seems right...I always liked Hitch...On the question of the Almighty he and I disagree but I had never heard this left handed compliment he delivered to someone I admire a great deal.....

Hitch reminds me of Jamil and PaulF...He's intellectually honest in regards to the great mysteries....

[video=youtube;swx75k1GWEo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swx75k1GWEo[/video]


[video=youtube;E9TMwfkDwIY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9TMwfkDwIY[/video]

First, thank you for the very kind compliment.

I have seen the first video before. Dr. Craig is my favorite Christian apologist. He really knows his stuff, and has a tremendous presence in a room. I could listen to him all day and never have my blood pressure rise. You have to give respect to someone with skill and knowledge, and Dr. Craig has both to spare.

I only watched the second video for the first time a moment ago. This may surprise you, but I agree wholeheartedly. If there are no gods, and I had the ability to convince everyone on the planet to leave their religious beliefs behind I wouldn't do it either...I can't explain it, really. People should be free to go tilting at windmills, and at the end of the day, who am I to try to stop them?

When the weather breaks I need to get down to your part of the state. A face-to-face meeting is long overdue.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

...
When the weather breaks I need to get down to your part of the state. A face-to-face meeting is long overdue.

I had the opportunity to stop by Rick's shop a week or two ago. Had a great time chatting with him. I recommend his shop to any INGOers that are heading South a bit. Especially if you are into the historic stuff.

 

[Mark 1911]

So, if we hear about some guy getting dragged down the track by a train, we will know that you didn't work out what you were going to do with it BEFORE you caught it!

Luckily for me, I did not get hit by the train, guess I won't need to figure that one out today!