Neighbor's Dog Charged Me Again, Part II

[Wabatuckian]

That's the dilemma that started this whole thing.

Short version: I was gathering firewood, neighbor's dog charged onto my property (why he built so close to me, I'll never know) and was foaming at the mouth trying to get to me. Growling, snarling, the works. I cleared leather, but didn't fire once I saw it was on a chain.

Neighbor comes out from behind his privacy fence, mad as hell, and told me that if I shot his dog, I'd have to shoot him. He was drunk and had something which could quickly become a weapon, so I went to low ready and waited.

I could have legally shot at least the dog and filed charges against the neighbor. I don't, however, want to shoot anybody or anything, and never want to aim a gun at a person again. Not that I wouldn't to defend myself, but I don't wanna.

I figured the dog had calmed by that point, and I just backed away.

To this day there lies a report with a detective captain of the sheriff's dept, who happens to be my friend, documenting this incident.

I won't shoot unless I have to, but I will not hesitate to shoot to save myself or another.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Short version: I was gathering firewood, neighbor's dog charged onto my property (why he built so close to me, I'll never know) and was foaming at the mouth trying to get to me. Growling, snarling, the works. I cleared leather, but didn't fire once I saw it was on a chain.

Glad you didn't fire when you realized there was no danger or at least minimal.

Neighbor comes out from behind his privacy fence, mad as hell, and told me that if I shot his dog, I'd have to shoot him. He was drunk and had something which could quickly become a weapon, so I went to low ready and waited.

From the sound of it you might of been justified to shoot his ass but not the dog, unless he undid the chain.

I could have legally shot at least the dog and filed charges against the neighbor.
I won't shoot unless I have to, but I will not hesitate to shoot to save myself or another.

Iffy on that since the dog was on a chain. And evidently couldn't reach you otherwise you would of been bite or shot the dog. Pressed charges against the neighbor quite possible though for allowing trespassing of his dog. Or even assault with a deadly weapon. No I can't come up with a cite at the moment but there have been a few convictions of assault with a deadly weapon when a person has sic'd a dog on someone.

But I'm glad everything is working out okay. And can I hire you to give me some training on how to handle dogs? I've been around them since I've been young but have no formal training and am looking to get a new pup soon .

And to answer the question you asked someone else. If my dog attacked you without cause and you had to put it down. No I would not give you any problems. If my dog went to attack someone without cause I'd put it down my self. But if you shot or injured my dog for no reason you will have hell to pay. My dog is part of my family.

 

[Wabatuckian]

If a dog is on my land, I can shoot it whether it's threatening me or not. This is supported by Indiana code.

I just happen to love dogs, and I choose not to kill them. They're almost, not quite, but almost, human to me, and far more loyal than any human could ever be.

Josh <><

 

[USMC_0311]

USMC,


I believe making blanket statements are irresponsible at best, and dangerous at worst.

Did I make a blanket statement? "Mine won't" Maybe but I just can't help it sometimes with this dog. He amazes me everyday. My apologies for being to proud of my dog. I have been offered big money for him several times, I feel guilty because I know he is capable of a lot more then I can offer but I guess I am selfish in that way.

I do not question your training methods, USMC, as I do not know you at all. I'm confident in mine.

Same here. You probably have more knowledge, I have no formal training, I learned a few things from a K-9 officer, a few classes, and of course the internet. It's my hobby next to shooting and I have enjoyed your insight.

However, I'm sure you'll agree that there are a LOT of folks out there who think they know what they're doing - until their dog mauls someone..

That was the original point I wanted to make but then I got to bragging.

My neighbor is a perfect example of this. I saw him the other day correcting his dog in the manner in which I had done! Guess it worked a bit better than his methods.....

Toughest part about training a dog is training the owner.

But I'm off on a tangent, and my question to JBrockman stands. If he loses control of his dog, and his dog seriously injures a person, is he willing to accept the responsibility? I know someone who was seriously mauled by his bulldog when said dog was already red and he tried to stop the dog. Nicest dog you'd ever want to meet, but instinct took over.

So how about it, JBrockman?

I would not hold anyone responsoble for shooting/killing my dog while defending themselves. Intersting question, I mean if that would happen in front of me and I see someone draw. Instincts take over and I draw, could be bad.

 

[JBrockman]

You are right Josh really did not consider that problem! If my animal was to leave the property (which Duke has never done but might I guess) and go after someone either walking on the road or on their own property then they have the right to defend themselves. After all I would do the same thing if I was in fear of being attacked, I was thinking of my property and protecting it.
About 25 years ago I raised a couple Great Danes and one of them turned out to be a handful, for some reason could not stand kids. I watched him one day straighten out a "S" hook that connected his choker to a chain to get at some kids on the road. As he ran from the barn luckily I was able to get to a .28 gauge that I kept in the kitchen for my mother for her protection and I shot him as he crossed the barn lot.
Rolled him and I thought I had killed him but as I walked up to him he raised his head and his right side was covered in big welps, not one shot broke the skin at that distance. Ended up giving him to a couple in Indianapolis that were having trouble with people breaking into their garage, talked to them a few months later and they said after one episode late one night where somebody ending up loosing a section of their blue jeans they had no more break ins.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Did I make a blanket statement? "Mine won't" Maybe but I just can't help it sometimes with this dog. He amazes me everyday. My apologies for being to proud of my dog. I have been offered big money for him several times, I feel guilty because I know he is capable of a lot more then I can offer but I guess I am selfish in that way.

I wasn't talking just about you, USMC, and nobody in particular.

We have some great folks here, you and JBrockman included.

When someone says that "my dog would never do that," that's when I start looking at the pride and confidence in the pup as turning into overconfidence, which can be dangerous.

The whole time that dog was trying to get to me, obviously trying to maul me, before it was under control - the owner was trying to tell me that it was ok, his dog wouldn't hurt me.

That's what I'm talking about. You two gents are obviously responsible.

Josh <><

 

[CulpeperMM]

...he is just one of those rare animals you may only get to experience once in a lifetime.

fine looking dog.

 

[jeremy]

If you want to see how intelligent and trained your dog is find a shutzhund club and arrange to have it tested. I can tell you without a doubt my dogs will and will not do.

On a side note where I live at we regularly shoot cur dogs. Stray dogs are not tolerated at all.

 

[Dr Falken]

I hear what your saying about blanket statements Josh Smith. I don't remember how many times I've heard "don't worry about the dog, he won't bite". We'll if he bit up the owners family I'd be surpised if they kept him, and the dog can be territorial and protective of outsiders, which is what I am. When I bring my dog to the vet, and she is a sweetheart, she gets muzzled by the vet, because she will growl and I don't want someone getting bit. I'm not the greatest dog trainer, but I'm under no delusions that if my dog took off, the neighbor's chickens might look real good!

 

[jdhaines]

Is there a manual somewhere or a book that describes the higher level dog training like a couple of you seem to know? I have read the low level stuff, but so much of the good stuff is just skirted around, and you only hear bits and pieces. The dog whisperer pisses me off because he acts like it's magic. It's not, he's just talented and knowledgeable, and I wish he would explain what he is doing. I like the show "It's me or the Dog" because she at least explains some of what she is doing. You don't hear it all, but she doesn't make it seem like a magic trick. I know there is logic and substance to proper training of a dog, but I haven't found a good resource yet. I'm talking about this like "nudging is a sign of dominance, so you have to nudge them back....etc." Any good links or books?

 

[RickBinFW]

I had a similar encounter a month ago. It turned out well though.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Is there a manual somewhere or a book that describes the higher level dog training like a couple of you seem to know? I have read the low level stuff, but so much of the good stuff is just skirted around, and you only hear bits and pieces. The dog whisperer pisses me off because he acts like it's magic. It's not, he's just talented and knowledgeable, and I wish he would explain what he is doing. I like the show "It's me or the Dog" because she at least explains some of what she is doing. You don't hear it all, but she doesn't make it seem like a magic trick. I know there is logic and substance to proper training of a dog, but I haven't found a good resource yet. I'm talking about this like "nudging is a sign of dominance, so you have to nudge them back....etc." Any good links or books?

I'm not immediately aware of any...

I would probably recommend a book on wolves and pack behavior, and study the hierarchy, esp the behavior of the alpha male.

There are a few things I can type out real quick, but then I have to get back to work.

1) When you get a new dog, do not take him immediately into the house. Take him for a walk, first thing. Two reasons for this: First, the dog likely came from a kennel. Your house and fenced yard, no matter how big, are just other kennels. The dog needs to get out before being locked up again.

2) Never let the dog touch you without touching back.

3) Correct the dog by pinching the neck and applying a sound. I prefer the "tsst" sound or a "ch" sound. This does not reinforce the behavior either way. Rather, the dog lives in the moment, and this gets the dog's attention. Additionally, the pinch on the neck is akin to nipping the neck, which is what dogs do to show dominance.

4) Mess with the ears, top of muzzle, and neck as much as possible. All these areas show that you're dominant. I've gone so far as to actually bite dogs' ears before, for the real effect on the dog.

5) If you're excited, the dog's excited. If you're calm, the dog's calm, but may try to walk all over you. If you're confident, the dog will have confidence in your leadership.

6) Never let a dog stare you down. A wolf I once had, and my current dog, Nikki, can hold gazes far longer than dogs are supposed to be able to pay attention. Regardless, never drop your gaze before the dog. This is a sign of weakness on your part if you do so.

7) Threats are not tolerated. Nikki is a rescue dog, and she growled at me a couple times. Both times she went down HARD with my hand on her throat. The dog should stop fighting at that point.

8) He who controls the food is master. Nikki is trained such that she is not allowed to eat without my permission. I will set her food in front of her, and she'll be drooling and all, but sometimes I call her away, sometimes I make her go out first, etc. When I'm ready for her to eat, I say, "Nikki, eat." ONLY THEN may she dig in. As well, I will claim the food by laying my hand on top of it. The dog should allow this - you're the alpha and control the food. Take the food away now and again. It's your right as alpha. It may seem cruel to some folks, but it's the way dogs' minds work.

Really have to get off here and back to work now, but I'll check the thread around 8 or so when I get home again.

Josh <><

 

[jdhaines]

All good stuff, and what I was looking for. Some of the stuff I have been reading lately has alot to do with pack behavior and dealing with a dog as the alpha rather than as many people do. I don't want to get extreme with it, but a little more control would be nice.

Unfortunately I have already had my once in a lifetime dog. I grew up with a Boxer that was amazing in multiple ways and I doubt I'll ever be able to recreate that. I just got a Boxer puppy who is now about 4 months old. She's good so far, but still a puppy.

Any more information like that posted above would be helpful. One of my favorite things about forums like this is that there is always someone who knows about whatever the topic may be. Everyone is an expert at something.

 

[jeremy]

Read up a little on the shutzhund training. It is about social and working dogs skills.

 

[USMC_0311]

Read up a little on the shutzhund training. It is about social and working dogs skills.

Are you involved with shutzhund?

 

[jeremy]

Not currently in this state. I can supply some info if you have questions though. Both of my dogs are shutzhund trained to level 1, which is obedience. Level 2 is Tracking with a level 3 dog being protection. It takes as much discipline for your as the handler as it requires from the dog so be prepared to work your butt off. It is well worth the time and sweat though.

Schutzhund Training - Learn about this amazing dog sport! is a great source for those wondering about this path.