Need suggestions on having my girlfriend get a LTCH

[erik7941]

I've been talking to my fiancee recently about her getting a gun and a LTCH. Every time the subject comes up, she tells me that not everyone in the world is out to do bad things or do harm to her. I like being prepared for any situation. I carry every day everywhere it's legal for me to do so. I hope I'll never have to use my gun, but I know that the world is not full of good people, fluffy bunnies, and unicorns as she seems to think. She has no problems with me owning guns, carrying a gun, or hunting and shooting. When I ask her if she wants a gun, she tells me she wants her mom's .357 magnum revolver. She's never shot it and I don't think she realises, she may not want to ever again, once she shoots it the first time. All of the guns of mine she's shot, have been .22's and 9mm's. She says she doesn't want to get a LTCH and that she won't carry a gun because she knows she won't shoot anyone. When I asked her, what if you were out shopping one day, and two guys followed you into the mall's bathroom and tried to pin you against the wall to do God knows what to you? You wouldn't want a LTCH and a gun then? She didn't have a response for me except that, "That's not a likely situation that will ever happen to me." The only good news is that she's interested in taking a couple classes (only if I go too) about home safety/home defense as well as handgun basics, etc. I've been looking at a couple of the classes offered at Indy Gun Safety for her to take. But I really need some suggestions/advice on how to deal with her ignorance on this subject. For once, I'd like to not hear her tell me she was wrong when something bad happens to her. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Jay]

Every time the subject comes up, she tells me that not everyone in the world is out to do bad things or do harm to her.

Next time you two are out and about, ask her to point out the people that pose her a threat. She can make millions if she can do that.

Ask her which woman is morally superior.....the one laying on the floor bleeding after being raped, or the one standing over her would-be attacker with a smoking gun in her hand ?

This applies also...........

CCW is a Civilized Act......

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

This site is an excellent resource for ladies... this link is to a specific section, blut the whole site is excellent.

Cornered Cat - Table of Contents

 

[N_K_1984]

very well stated. i can truly agree with all of that.

as an old saying goes, "better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

i hope to never have to use a person protection firearm. doesn't mean i'm not ready when and if that time comes. know how to use it, be comfortable with it, and never draw it unless you mean to use it.

it really can be the difference between life and death, albeit your life or the lives of those you love and care for. can you put a price on your loved ones lives? could one day protecting them from harm or even death morally outweigh any convictions to carrying? i think so.

there are those that will argue with me; yes i say it could happen, but you say it is just as likely to not happen. It now goes back to the first statement i made. Better to have it and not need it, then to need it, and not have it.

as a general statement to those who disagree with carrying or gun ownership in general, you may disagree with carrying; "that gun is an awful, terrible enemy right now, but in that one moment where you might need it most, where it can save your life, where it can protect your family, that gun will now become your best friend.

i guess i am lucky, I have a conservative girl (from texas originally), she doesn't carry right now, but she has no problem doing so in the future. she is pro-gun, and familiar with gun safety and she shoots everytime i go out to the range.

 

[Pami]

Another thing that you might mention is that it's good for her to have her LTCH "just in case." As in...

"just in case" you leave your gun under her bed when you're at her house "visiting" and she decides to bring it back to you. (She'll need an LTCH to "carry" it from her house to yours in her car.)

"just in case" you leave your gun in your car, and she takes your car to the grocery store. (She'll need an LTCH to "carry" it from your home to the grocery.)

"just in case" she actually gets her mom's revolver and wants to take it to the range to practice some time. (She'll need an LTCH to "carry" it from her home to the range in her car.)

"just in case" she actually does have something make her suddenly feel vulnerable and realizes she has to wait about eight weeks in order to be able to get her license to carry legally. (She'll need an LTCH to "carry" it anywhere, on her person or in her car, legally.)

Just because she doesn't feel the need to carry a gun on her person doesn't necessarily negate the fact that she needs an LTCH. The fact that she enjoys shooting some of your guns and doesn't mind that you own them and actually carry them is a HUGE step in the right direction. You'd be amazed how hard getting some women over that hurdle is (myself included, ask Lars some time, or poke around some old threads here).

Getting her to apply for her LTCH should be as easy as taking her to the police station and saying, "Here, I'll pay for it. I just need a few minutes of your time. And then we can put it in your wallet and forget it's there. Until you realize you need it." It would be better if she's amiable to the decision, but this is one thing you CAN actually make her do. She might be mad at you for a few days, but I seriously doubt it will be a deal breaker. You're not asking her to CARRY a gun. You're asking her to add another piece of paper to her wallet (or your safe, to guard against the day when she might need it).

With her LTCH safely in hand, it will take time, but it will be easier to get her to warm up to actually carrying a firearm some day when she might need it.

 

[antsi]

I'm going to take a different tack than the other folks who have responded here.

You can try to scare her in to getting a permit, or you can try to reason/logic her in to getting a permit. You might be successful in this. But ultimately this will not accomplish what you really want.

What you really want isn't just for her to have a permit. What you really want is for her to 1) have a permit 2) carry regularly 3) get enough training and practice to be proficient 4) have a survivor mindset to be able to fight her way out of a bad situation if she ever encounters one.

You will notice on that list 2), 3), 4) all depend on her beliefs and motivations. You may be able to scare her or argue her into getting a permit and buying a gun. You may even be able to drag her to a class. But she's not going to approach her training or her practice or her mindset with the kind of application and motivation it takes unless she has personally come to feel the need for armed self defense. She's not going to re-arrange her wardrobe to accommodate carrying unless she really deep down personally feels the need. You're not going to get there by frightening her or using logic. If she gets there, it's going to be her own journey.

If she will do all of 1, 2, 3, 4 above that I outlined, I do think she will be better off. But I don't think she is necessarily better off having a permit or a gun in her purse if she doesn't have the necessary training, practice, and mindset. Or having a gun in her dresser that she doesn't carry or doesn't shoot.

So, yeah, point her to some of the essays on Cornered Cat web site. And above all, go there yourself read the essay there about "how to make your wife hate guns" and don't do any of the things on that page.

Take her to the range with the primary goal of her having fun. If she's scared of your .44 magnum and prefers shooting a .22, then for gosh sakes encourage her to shoot the .22 all day long. You'll get a lot farther by her having a fun range day with a .22 than pressuring her to shoot a gun she's scared of.

Above all, don't push it. You can pave the road for her, but if you try to drag her down that road she won't be going with her own internal motivation and you won't be accomplishing what you want to accomplish.

Carrying is a personal decision and carries with it a lot of responsibility and ethical impact. I would never want to pressure someone into carrying. If they're headed that way I'll help them along, but I'm not going to push it.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

erik, I don't think you can "talk her into it" but perhaps you are taking the wrong approach. How many things have you enjoyed that were forced upon you. Try a softer approach.

If she is to be your wife and you are a shooter, then it is within her best interest to obtain a LTCH in case you mistakenly leave a pistol in the car. It is cheap insurance to prevent her from being arrested.

Buy her a .22 for Valentine's. Take her to breakfast and then to the range, or lunch after or a hike or bike ride or whatever she likes. Make it a "fun day".

The "heavy approach" rarely works as, 1. most people are in denial about the chances/stakes involved in self-defence, 2. most people are socialised not to hurt other human beings and see self-defence as hurting others, not saving oneself.

EDIT: Ah, geez, Pami and antsi had it covered. Geez, I'm not some Johnny Come Lately.

 

[AuntieBellum]

+1 to Pami. Having my LTCH was exactly was I needed to decide to carry. When my husband was going into renew his LTCH, we decided for those exact reasons - gun left in car, taking his gun to him when I pick him up from work for a night out shopping, etc - that I should have it "just in case." Just over a year later, I carry, too.

And, as a side note, while it shouldn't matter at all, having that pink card beside your ID that you pull out to prove your residency at the gun counter helps give her a little more rapport with the guys behind the counter, and I've found they treat me more seriously after they "notice" my card. That may then help her feel a little more comfortable if/when she finally decides to buy a gun and carry herself.

 

[kludge]

When I ask her if she wants a gun, she tells me she wants her mom's .357 magnum revolver. She's never shot it and I don't think she realises, she may not want to ever again, once she shoots it the first time.

She can start by shooting .38 SPL in it.

She says she doesn't want to get a LTCH and that she won't carry a gun because she knows she won't shoot anyone.

I'd say she's made a wise decision then.

When I asked her, what if you were out shopping one day, and two guys followed you into the mall's bathroom and tried to pin you against the wall to do God knows what to you? You wouldn't want a LTCH and a gun then? She didn't have a response for me except that, "That's not a likely situation that will ever happen to me."

Every 2 minutes someone in the US is sexually assaulted.

1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted at some point in her life.

College age women are 4 times more likely to be sexually assualted.

73% of victims know their assailant.

60% of attacks are not reported to police.

Only 6% of rapist ever spend a day in jail.

RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network | RAINN: The nation's largest anti-sexual assault organization.One of “America’s 100 Best Charities" —Worth magazine

The only good news is that she's interested in taking a couple classes (only if I go too) about home safety/home defense as well as handgun basics, etc. I've been looking at a couple of the classes offered at Indy Gun Safety for her to take.

If she's willing to take a class then by all means...

Anyone with guns in the home should be familiar with basic safety and rudimentary operation, IMO.

But I really need some suggestions/advice on how to deal with her ignorance on this subject. For once, I'd like to not hear her tell me she was wrong when something bad happens to her. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Time. Don't push. Don't argue.

 

[Eddie]

Have fun with it

Expose her to some of the fun parts of shooting and build up her enthusiasm. My cousin decided she wanted a gun after her house was broken into. I took a fairly broad selection of weapons over to her father"s house and the three of us spent the afternoon putting holes in a five gallon bucket. When a shot from a twelve gauge tore the bucket in half she got a big goofy grin on her face and said "I want one of these!".

 

[erik7941]

Hey all, I appreciate the advice and suggestions so far. I have no intentions of pushing the subject anymore than I already have. She has a very close-minded outlook on things that have to do with violence, especially if someone brings up the fact that something bad could happen to her. She thinks that the world is a friendly place and that no one will ever try to harm her or mug her or that no one will ever try to rob her or a place she is at. As I said, she's been shooting with me several times and has no problems with me shooting/hunting. She likes to shoot and she has fun while we're at the range. I don't want to (and won't) try to force her into it or argue with her about it, but I would like her to consider all the reasons for having one. Thanks to Pami for the "just in case" reasons. If anyone else has anymore tips or advice, I'm all ears. Thanks again to all who have posted.

 

[schapm]

Been having the same discussion on and off with my wife. I have offered her a pink gun any time she gives the word, and have mentioned that it would be nice if she gets her lifetime LTCH because 1) they might discontinue them just like they did the lifetime hunting licenses and 2) it might be nice in certain situations for her to carry my gun for me briefly. For example, since I can't carry at work, she could bring my gun to me if we are meeting up after work. She already does this, but she has to unload it and carry it in the trunk. Be nice if it could just be in her purse. (It is loaded because I leave it where she can get to it during the day when I am not home. She says she likes having it available during the day. Progress!) I also have taken her to the range and regularly remind her she looks hot shooting a gun whenver it comes up. Beyond that though, I *never* bring up her and guns unless she starts it. The last thing I want to do is make it a nagging thing or a subject she is just sick of. Good luck! It will certainly bring me "piece of mind" if my wife starts carrying, so I know what you are going through. I am making progress though with the tactics I am using. My wife is warming to the idea of a pink gun, and she has already gone from being afraid to touch my guns to really enjoying plinking at the range and appreciating having one available to her at home. This is our progress after just over three years of marriage.

 

[Bapak2ja]

Next time you two are out and about, ask her to point out the people that pose her a threat. She can make millions if she can do that.

Ask her which woman is morally superior.....the one laying on the floor bleeding after being raped, or the one standing over her would-be attacker with a smoking gun in her hand ?

This applies also...........

CCW is a Civilized Act......

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

This site is an excellent resource for ladies... this link is to a specific section, blut the whole site is excellent.

Cornered Cat - Table of Contents

Excellent and eloquent. Thanks for a great statement!

 

[JCA1776]

Been having the same discussion on and off with my wife. I have offered her a pink gun any time she gives the word, and have mentioned that it would be nice if she gets her lifetime LTCH because 1) they might discontinue them just like they did the lifetime hunting licenses and 2) it might be nice in certain situations for her to carry my gun for me briefly. For example, since I can't carry at work, she could bring my gun to me if we are meeting up after work. She already does this, but she has to unload it and carry it in the trunk. Be nice if it could just be in her purse.

Just an FYI... it is not legal to carry a gun without an LTCH even if it is unloaded and in the trunk. (Check out the FAQs on this.) You mentioned that your wife already does this for you. She could be in for an unpleasant surprise if she happens to get pulled over with the gun in her trunk. I just don't want to see that happen to you guys!

Josh

 

[redneckmedic]

Make her your wife... then you will have her obedience on your side

 

[caddywhompus]

Here's what you do:
1. Call up caddywhompus since you ain't done that in a while.
2. Ask him to bring all his handguns/boomsticks over to your place.
3. Have the future wife shoot my Sig again, all the while dropping subtle hints as to the advantages of procuring a LTCH.
4. We can all drink beer and eat Mexican food after.
P.S. Thanx for telling your buddy about INGO!

 

[erik7941]

Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. I think (with the help of this thread especially) that she's going to get her LTCH. She saw me putting on my holster for my CZ the other day and asked if she could put it on her belt for a little while. After she wore it around for a little while in my apartment, she made the comment that she didn't really notice it on her hip and that if she did get one, she'd want a holster like that one. I also mentioned that having one would be nice in case I left my gun in her car or at her place and she needed to bring it to me, she could do so, legally. She said for those reasons, she would get one. She says she won't carry when she gets her LTCH, but there's still hope for her since I didn't think she would ever agree to getting her LTCH. But I'm not going to force her to carry, I just want her to have the option to do so and since she's agreed to get her LTCH, she can always change her mind. Thanks to all who have posted their thoughts, and to caddywhompus, you're welcome for the intro to INGO.