Need advice on this custom 1911 “race gun” I recently inherited.

[Firehawk]

My Father-in-Law ran his own business selling monuments for a cemetery. He occasionally had opportunity to take some things on trade. This is one of those and I recently inherited it after his passing. I have no history of it’s story or making.

What I do know: it is 38 super. It is built on wide double stack frame. It has a stainless steel fluted bull barrel. Muzzle brake is threaded on to the barrel and also supports the full length guide rod. The barrel has a one piece integral feed ramp. I can’t find a brand on the the frame or the slide. The only markings I’ve found is a serial number. I have not dissembled the pistol yet and didn’t want to until I have a better idea what I’m dealing with.

What I’ve noticed: I suspect the frame may be a double stack Para Ordinance, but can’t say for sure. The gun appears to be fully hand fitted. Slide to frame fit has absolutely ZERO slop yet it is buttery smooth. Trigger is custom. It is pinned into frame. The factory trigger shoe was ground to the frame profile. The custom trigger has a cam lobe that presses back on the ground factory trigger shoe. This uses leverage to lighten the trigger feel. It is significantly lighter than a 4lb trigger on my other 1911 (I don’t have a trigger gauge to measure it with). The trigger guard appears to have been cut and replaced with square guard (brazed or welded in very professionally). A small plate appears to be welded to the frame and then drilled and tapped for a scope mount.

It came with 5 20 round mags and 2 26 round mags. And a competition gun belt with speed holster and 5 mag holsters.

My questions:
What would building a gun like this cost and what is it’s approx value now?
What type of pistol competition is this built for? And how to I enter that type of competition if I want to?
What should I do with it?
I’m not interested in selling at this point.
I’m thinking about maybe just keeping it as is and trying out some competition shoots myself. I’ve never shot in a competition but think it could be fun.
My other thought is to remove the scope and mount and instead have the slide cut for a Holosun 507c (RMR footprint). Or getting a new slide already cut for a RMR. But then the new slide would need fitted.

I appreciate any thoughts and advice.

Again, I am not selling at this point.

 

[Jaybird1980]

It's an Open Class gun.Bianchi, Ipsc or Uspsa
You can shoot USPSA Open Class, show up, tell them you're new and they will get you through it. You can also shoot it at a Steel Challenge match, same instructions.

It does look like an Older Para build, but the trigger guard resembles a Caspian, hard to say. The optic being frame mounted allows it to run faster, less recoil, and keeps the optic more stable through the recoil so it's easier to track. The value is pretty hard, not knowing the builder doesn't help. I've seen these things sell from $700 and up.

If you wanted to update the optic, it would be easiest to just have a new mount made that can mount what you want.

 

[danatkins]

Like Jaybird said older open class gun. I've got my dad's custom Caspian from the 80s single stack 45 with comp. I'm gonna shoot it in open this year at a couple matches just for nostalgia reasons. It's not got a dot or double stack so I know I'm gonna get thrashed but I don't compete to be competitive in any shooting sports I do. It's all for fun. I'd say to build that gun now you're probably looking at 1500 or more

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[Firehawk]

It's an Open Class gun.Bianchi, Ipsc or Uspsa
You can shoot USPSA Open Class, show up, tell them you're new and they will get you through it. You can also shoot it at a Steel Challenge match, same instructions.

It does look like an Older Para build, but the trigger guard resembles a Caspian, hard to say. The optic being frame mounted allows it to run faster, less recoil, and keeps the optic more stable through the recoil so it's easier to track. The value is pretty hard, not knowing the builder doesn't help. I've seen these things sell from $700 and up.

If you wanted to update the optic, it would be easiest to just have a new mount made that can mount what you want.

Wow, I’m surprised that a full custom built competition 1911 can be as cheap as regular production 1911s.

Do people still do these types of builds or are these builds considered obsolete compared to STI style competition ready packages being offered now?

 

[Jaybird1980]

Wow, I’m surprised that a full custom built competition 1911 can be as cheap as regular production 1911s.

Do people still do these types of builds or are these builds considered obsolete compared to STI style competition ready packages being offered now?

There are all kinds of different builds that happen. The older stuff doesn't really hold much value, unless you find the right person looking for older stuff. I like those older builds and the belt rigs, just look cool to me and I like the nostalgia. But I imagine it wouldn't be real easy to find someone who wants to buy it and use it for competition. Competition guys like the new hot thing.

Best bet would be to keep it and use it, you'll be surprised at how much fun you will have. And eventually you'll have the joy of getting picked on for using your grandad's rig. Lol

 

[Jaybird1980]

Are the mags marked with a brand?

Is the holster marked?

 

[Firehawk]

Are the mags marked with a brand?

Is the holster marked?

The only marking on the mags is a P in a circle on the base plate. Can’t get a pic right now. The wife’s in bed and I don’t want to wake her getting stuff back out.
The belt said “Safariland” but I don’t know if the holster is the same. I looks to me like it all matches and goes together as a set not just pieced together.
This is all on a whole new level to me! I know very little about custom guns and competition!

 

[Jaybird1980]

The only marking on the mags is a P in a circle. Can’t get a pic right now. The wife’s in bed and I don’t wake her getting stuff back out.
The belt said “Safariland” but I don’t know if the holster is the same. I looks to me like it all matches and goes together as a set not just pieced together.
This is all on a whole new level to me! I know very little about custom guns and competition!

Yeah I don't have very much knowledge on them either. Wish I did. Hopefully someone here will be able to get you some more info.

They do look like Para P18 pattern mag bodies to me.

 

[armalitesheepdog]

I think the value is not what your expecting because its built to someone else’s liking. Its like a hot rod.you can dump a ton of money with custom speed parts and other accessories but you will never recoup your investment.
In most circumstances

 

[Firehawk]

Yeah I don't have very much knowledge on them either. Wish I did. Hopefully someone here will be able to get you some more info.

The funny thing is my dream 1911 build is a double stack 38 Super or 10mm with cool slide cuts or serrations and a micro red dot/reflex like a RMR, Deltapoint or Holosun. I used to talk to my Dad-in-law about that dream gun. One day he pulls this out of his safe to show it off. I know he only took it in on trade because of me. My first thought when I saw the gun was “WTH is this? How old is that scope and mount?!” But the more I check it out the more I’m in awe of the exceptional fit and function of the gun. Maybe I should use this as the base for my dream build? I think I’d just have to replace the slide.

 

[churchmouse]

Like Jaybird said older open class gun. I've got my dad's custom Caspian from the 80s single stack 45 with comp. I'm gonna shoot it in open this year at a couple matches just for nostalgia reasons. It's not got a dot or double stack so I know I'm gonna get thrashed but I don't compete to be competitive in any shooting sports I do. It's all for fun. I'd say to build that gun now you're probably looking at 1500 or more

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You are looking at well north of $2K just for the parts.
That is a neat piece of history right there and I would bet it is a hoot to shoot.
The optic is outdated for sure.
38 Super is a great round if you can find the ammo or components to roll your own.
That trigger has me scratching my head.

Keep it. Upgrade the optic and have some fun with it.

 

[churchmouse]

Wow, I’m surprised that a full custom built competition 1911 can be as cheap as regular production 1911s.

Do people still do these types of builds or are these builds considered obsolete compared to STI style competition ready packages being offered now?

Yes. Folks still do this.

 

[downrange72]

Wow, I’m surprised that a full custom built competition 1911 can be as cheap as regular production 1911s.

Do people still do these types of builds or are these builds considered obsolete compared to STI style competition ready packages being offered now?

Yes. Probably looking at 4K plus. There are 3 builders around Indianapolis that I can think of.

 

[crewchief888]

looks like an older build, (mid 90's ?) definitely a safariland belt and mag carriers, may be a CR speed holster? i still run a single stack springfield 45acp in open with the same tasco tube dot.

 

[Firehawk]

You are looking at well north of $2K just for the parts.
That is a neat piece of history right there and I would bet it is a hoot to shoot.
The optic is outdated for sure.
38 Super is a great round if you can find the ammo or components to roll your own.
That trigger has me scratching my head.

Keep it. Upgrade the optic and have some fun with it.

Thanks for the info CM. I actually already have ammo for it. After Dad got it I bought 38 Super dies and loaded up 100 rounds. We just never got a chance to take it out. And yeah that trigger is crazy but by far the best trigger I own now. I couldn’t find any info on 1911 triggers done that way but is obviously gunsmith done.

 

[63PGP]

There is a Para pistol on this page that has a trigger that looks like yours.

Para-Ordnance P14-45 - Modern Firearms

Basic Para-Ordnance P14-45 pistol, caliber .45ACP. Para-Ordnance P18-9 pistol, caliber 9mm Luger / Parabellum. Basic Para-Ordnance P14-45 LDA pistol, caliber .45ACP, with DAO-type LDA trigger. Compact P10-45 pistol, caliber .45ACP. Characteristics Type: Single Action (Double action...

modernfirearms.net

 

[danatkins]

There is a Para pistol on this page that has a trigger that looks like yours.

Para-Ordnance P14-45 - Modern Firearms

Basic Para-Ordnance P14-45 pistol, caliber .45ACP. Para-Ordnance P18-9 pistol, caliber 9mm Luger / Parabellum. Basic Para-Ordnance P14-45 LDA pistol, caliber .45ACP, with DAO-type LDA trigger. Compact P10-45 pistol, caliber .45ACP. Characteristics Type: Single Action (Double action...

modernfirearms.net

I'd forgotten about the LDA I've never seen someone build a gun off one

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[VinceU1]

Yes, it looks like a Para LDA frame. That was Para's attempt at a very low pull weight trigger. The trigger guard was reformed to let you extend your off hand trigger finger to help control the pistol during recoil. Personally I could never use that technique so just kept my Para frames stock in shape.
The mags are really early STI for Para mags. They stopped making them about 20 years or so ago. They fed very well but were a bit soft for heavy match useage. You would need to retune the mag lips after each match. If you want to shoot this gun during a match I might suggest finding someone to weld up the mag match to use regular STI mags, or sped LOTS of money getting MBX mags. Forget about trying to get hold of SPS version of the Para mag, you'd need to import them from Spain. Guess what government is death on that kind of stuff?
The barrel and comp look like an EGW set they sold back in the late 90's.
As pointed out, the Para info is under the scope mount plate. You'll be wanting to put a different scope on it as the early ProPoints had issues with longevity. They'd die in the middle of a match and you might or might not get them running again. Most people sent them off to the Scope Doctor to get them to work.
I've got the regular singe stage trigger double of this pistol in my safe, I've had it for 20+ hears and had fewer problems with the Para than I had with the STI gun. If you want to shoot it, go right ahead and take it to a match and do so. You'll have fun.

 

[Jaybird1980]

I'm not 100% on it being an actual Para LDA frame. I had a LDA gun for quite a long time and I'm fairly certain the trigger hinge pin was further forward, like slide stop area.

 

[Firehawk]

There is a Para pistol on this page that has a trigger that looks like yours.

Para-Ordnance P14-45 - Modern Firearms

Basic Para-Ordnance P14-45 pistol, caliber .45ACP. Para-Ordnance P18-9 pistol, caliber 9mm Luger / Parabellum. Basic Para-Ordnance P14-45 LDA pistol, caliber .45ACP, with DAO-type LDA trigger. Compact P10-45 pistol, caliber .45ACP. Characteristics Type: Single Action (Double action...

modernfirearms.net

That is interesting but I’m pretty sure my trigger is different. Mine still has all the normal 1911 trigger internals including the standard 1911 trigger. The standard 1911 trigger has been cut down to be flush with the frame inside the trigger guard. The custom trigger was then placed in front of the standard trigger to press back on it. It takes advantage of using leverage to reduce the pull weight without sacrificing reliability of setting the spring tension too low. I can put a pick behind the custom trigger and press only the standard trigger in the frame and the hammer will fall. You can see how it is set up in the up close pic of the trigger. If you look close you can see the standard trigger is still there flush in the frame.