Myth or urban legend?

[rw496]

Does anyone know of a factual incident of ATF trying to bait an FFL or private seller into making an illegal transaction? I have heard that this happens, but don't know for sure. I suspect this may have happened to a friend of mine who was smart enough to decline.

 

[Mosinguy]

It happens. You don't ever hear about it though but some people (including myself) have had gun buying/selling experiences where things seemed weird and didn't carry through with the transaction.

 

[goinggreyfast]

I was discussing this with a friend the other day who stood up and denied a straw purchase. The whole thing seemed really odd even when he described it to me. Even as he described the situation it seemed like I had heard a very similar scenario played out and described here on INGO a year or so ago. Wonder if they are making the rounds.

 

[Mosinguy]

My first experience: was selling a handgun, told the buyer I wanted to see LTCH when we met. He agreed to that. I met him and he says straight up he didn't have a LTCH and he was from Illinois and his FOID expired. I said to him no thanks. Just gave me goosebumps and I'm glad I brought my boy with me on that one.

 

[nicajack]

I had an undercover ATF agent offer to sell me 2 M-16's for $450 a piece in FLA. Having been a cop, I could spot him for what he was and ran him off.
Had a guy in a gold, older Cadillac come to house to buy a gun. Parked out on the road, instead of drive and I still spotted the Ill. tag. Tried to buy a handgun from me, but I refused. He was probably ATF. Had gun listed on Armslist.

 

[PistolBob]

Randy Weaver...they tried to get him to sell them a shotgun of questionable length, and then tried to blackmail him into infiltrating a local white power group. He refused, and they ended up raiding his home and killing his wife and son.

Google Ruby Ridge.

 

[manygunsmike]

Randy Weaver...they tried to get him to sell them a shotgun of questionable length, and then tried to blackmail him into infiltrating a local white power group. He refused, and they ended up raiding his home and killing his wife and son.

Google Ruby Ridge.

Oh you beat me to it!

manygunsmike

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

The AFT had a string of people, wired for sound, in and out of Ludco in Parker City during their investigation of that shop. Both law enforcement personnel and paid informants.

It happens. Probably way more than we'd ever think.

-J-

 

[JetGirl]

The AFT had a string of people, wired for sound, in and out of Ludco in Parker City

That's the first one that came to mind, too.
Ruby Ridge wasn't far behind.

 

[dross]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you advertise a gun for sale, and a guy shows up to buy it, you are not required by law to ask his name, his residency, his criminal background or any other thing about him.

My understanding of the law is that you are only required to refuse to sell it to him if you know or have reason to believe that he is not legal to buy it. Is that correct?

If so, while it may be very smart and very good practice to ask those questions, and require ID or an LTCH, you couldn't be arrested for it unless the ATF agent decided to lie, in which case asking for the ID would't matter much either. Where am I going wrong?

 

[goinggreyfast]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you advertise a gun for sale, and a guy shows up to buy it, you are not required by law to ask his name, his residency, his criminal background or any other thing about him.

My understanding of the law is that you are only required to refuse to sell it to him if you know or have reason to believe that he is not legal to buy it. Is that correct?

If so, while it may be very smart and very good practice to ask those questions, and require ID or an LTCH, you couldn't be arrested for it unless the ATF agent decided to lie, in which case asking for the ID would't matter much either. Where am I going wrong?

I looked at the OP's question from an FFL perspective, because that was the question asked.

 

[JetGirl]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you advertise a gun for sale, and a guy shows up to buy it, you are not required by law to ask his name, his residency, his criminal background or any other thing about him.

My understanding of the law is that you are only required to refuse to sell it to him if you know or have reason to believe that he is not legal to buy it. Is that correct?

From the perspective of "private deal", that is correct.

 

[printcraft]

My first experience: was selling a handgun, told the buyer I wanted to see LTCH when we met. He agreed to that. I met him and he says straight up he didn't have a LTCH and he was from Illinois and his FOID expired. I said to him no thanks. Just gave me goosebumps and I'm glad I brought my boy with me on that one.

This is how the trap is set, you have to be greedy and walk into it like old Fred did at Ludco.
"Damn, I need the money and I'm already here..." No, do not do it.

Same thing with the bait car, just because there is a car parked with the keys in it does not mean you should take it.

You get enough rope to hang yourself. If it is not kosher in the least bit WALK, no, RUN away.

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

It still appears to be an urban legend to me.

The one incident mentioned, Ruby Ridge, was clearly NOT an undercover agent. It was the government trying to twist Randy Weaver to go undercover against the Aryan Nation.

Every other story is "someone twitchy" who "I think or I suspect" was an ATF agent with zero identification or proof whatsoever. There are a lot of twitchy/weird/suspicious people in the world and most of them do not work for the government.

I am not saying that I don't believe it has never happened. I just think that it has happened a lot less than people want to think. People hear one story and over the years it gets blown way out of proportion to the reality of what goes on.

Even IF we grant the Ruby Ridge incident as qualifying for the sake of this discussion (which I don't) it was ONE (1) incident almost 30 years ago. That doesn't sound like a good foundation for proof of a pattern to me.

Regards,

Doug

 

[goinggreyfast]

To All,

It still appears to be an urban legend to me.

The one incident mentioned, Ruby Ridge, was clearly NOT an undercover agent. It was the government trying to twist Randy Weaver to go undercover against the Aryan Nation.

Every other story is "someone twitchy" who "I think or I suspect" was an ATF agent with zero identification or proof whatsoever. There are a lot of twitchy/weird/suspicious people in the world and most of them do not work for the government.

I am not saying that I don't believe it has never happened. I just think that it has happened a lot less than people want to think. People hear one story and over the years it gets blown way out of proportion to the reality of what goes on.

Even IF we grant the Ruby Ridge incident as qualifying for the sake of this discussion (which I don't) it was ONE (1) incident almost 30 years ago. That doesn't sound like a good foundation for proof of a pattern to me.

Regards,

Doug

If it walks like a duck & quacks like a duck, it will most likely take a poop in your pond.

 

[printcraft]

To All,

I am not saying that I don't believe it has never happened. I just think that it has happened a lot less than people want to think. People hear one story and over the years it gets blown way out of proportion to the reality of what goes on.

Even IF we grant the Ruby Ridge incident as qualifying for the sake of this discussion (which I don't) it was ONE (1) incident almost 30 years ago. That doesn't sound like a good foundation for proof of a pattern to me.

See below...... they did not walk in and say "we're with the .gov and we want to do a straw purchase."

The AFT had a string of people, wired for sound, in and out of Ludco in Parker City during their investigation of that shop. Both law enforcement personnel and paid informants.
-J-

 

[femurphy77]

Isn't the most obvious display of corruption the Gunwalker scheme? Read recently that they are now going after the dealers that they muscled into making the illegal sales. Oh well, somebody has to fall for it, surely you wouldn't go after the ones responsible.

 

[dfcrane]

I do not believe the ATF is going out blind trying to bait random FFL's or individuals. Now if they receive a complaint on an FFL or individual, I could see them going in undercover and seeing if the person was willing to make an illegal sale. That is kind of their job isn't it?

 

[dross]

I looked at the OP's question from an FFL perspective, because that was the question asked.

He mentioned private seller in his post and several people commented from that perspective.

It's just something I like to get out there every time this comes up. Not that I don't think people should ask for an LTCH, I think that's good due diligence, even though I probably wouldn't bother.

If an ATF agent showed up and was trying to sting a private seller, I would think he would probably try to drop a statement leading you to believe he was illegal. It wouldn't be entrapment, because you advertised the gun.

So if he just showed up and offered money, unless he lied you wouldn't be in trouble. If he showed up and said, "I was really glad to see your gun for sale. I wanted to buy one, but they do a background check at gun shops and I wouldn't pass because of an old felony conviction," I might very well think he was an agent.

But, I'm just speculatin' on a hypothesis. No real world experience. Perhaps it happens another way.

 

[BigMatt]

My understanding of the law is that you are only required to refuse to sell it to him if you know or have reason to believe that he is not legal to buy it. Is that correct?

That is how I understand it too. I always request a state ID and ask if they are legally allowed to own a firearm. Only once did I get a hinky answer and refuse a purchase.