Lights on guns. WHY????

[Hawkeye7br]

Is pointing a gun at misguided youth ok where you live?

If he is breaking into my house, garage, pole barn.....with me and my wife home....yeah, I'm ok with it. Letting him know there are dangerous consequences to his actions....still ok with it.

 

[churchmouse]

If he is breaking into my house, garage, pole barn.....with me and my wife home....yeah, I'm ok with it. Letting him know there are dangerous consequences to his actions....still ok with it.

I really believe the point being made was a door bell ring and run just to mess with you. That kind of misguided youth.

 

[DadSmith]

Is pointing a gun at misguided youth ok where you live?

If they are on private property especially in the country at night that is a huge no no. They will get meet many times by armed property owners. I greet all coming on my property at night with a Firearm at my disposal. Especially if they are just driving around on it not stopping at the house to give reason.

 

[JCSR]

I really believe the point being made was a door bell ring and run just to mess with you. That kind of misguided youth.

Yes. In my case I have a good view of my front door and porch without opening a door. When I saw the front was clear I headed out the back the came around and cleared the front again. Then I when full Tactical Timmy and looked up and down my street. As my son explained to me, what if a neighbor had came out for the same reason and I shined my WML and pointed my M&P right at him. I till have the light on the M&P but when I venture outside I'll take a hand held and use my WML as needed. I think I will do better next time.

 

[churchmouse]

Yes. In my case I have a good view of my front door and porch without opening a door. When I saw the front was clear I headed out the back the came around and cleared the front again. Then I when full Tactical Timmy and looked up and down my street. As my son explained to me, what if a neighbor had came out for the same reason and I shined my WML and pointed my M&P right at him. I till have the light on the M&P but when I venture outside I'll take a hand held and use my WML as needed. I think I will do better next time.

Yes every situation is different.

All of my hand held lights at the ready are "Stupid" bright and not to be used inside without giving my eyes issues seeing in a dead dark room. Out side they are perfect.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Investigating a bump in the night, hand held light with weapon muzzle following Cooper's 2nd rule... and mindset on 3rd and 4th.

Glass breaking/door getting kicked in/etc, WML, muzzle covering hallway to bedrooms and wifey calling 911... 3rd and 4th still apply.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I cannot find a link to the self defense article I read... homeowner shot because light gave his position away, happened once 25 years ago. Shooting a loved one or roommate wandering the house or teen sneaking in late, something like a weekly occurrence.

ETA: Found it: CLAUDE WERNER ON “SERIOUS MISTAKES GUNOWNERS MAKE” PART 1

 

[ChooterMcGavin1973]

I tend to keep multiple handheld flashlights on the bedside table with my home defense gun. If I hear a bump in the night, I turn them on and throw them down the hall as to confuse the intruder about my true position!
Seriously though, I do have a light on every gun that will accept it. As others have said, just because you have it on the gun doesn’t mean you have to use it. Thank God I have never been in a situation where someone was shooting at me and using my light against me as a bullet beacon!

 

[700 LTR 223]

In complete darkness I can turn on my Streamlight equipped handgun and see everything. Night sights don't show me anything in regards to what I'd be shooting at.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

TL;DR: No, you don't "need" one on a defensive carry piece but it's not a bad idea on a home defense gun *if* you use the splash of the light to identify targets and are properly trained/practiced. A handheld light is much more useful, prioritize that if you want supplemental light.

I'll just recycle a few posts. If they appear to quote people who aren't here, ignore that part.

Ref a defensive carry pistol (as opposed to home defense or duty carry):

...what the real world has shown us. Between my personal case files and Givens' studies we've got at least 200 shootings of criminal actors, zero of which required a WML. If you don't mind the inclusion of criminal on criminal shootings, I can easily approach 1k shootings where neither side had or needed a WML. The situations where people are victimized simply don't lend themselves to needing one.

I'm sure you can fashion some hypothetical where a WML is indispensable. I've yet to see one real world. Neither has Givens.

People don't get victimized in completely dark stairwells at distances. They get victimized in places with enough ambient light for the suspect to target them and by people close enough to victimize them.

Nothing wrong with a WML if you want one. A separate and distinct light source is more flexible, though, and much more likely to be useful.

[super dark isolated places] that's not where random victim crime is occurring. Bad guys do at least rudimentary victim selection, they hang out where people are, and people tend to not hang out in places it's so dark you can't see what someone is carrying. As stated, you can come up with many hypothetical scenarios where this is true. The absolute closest I can think of in any of my cases is a group of robbers hanging out in a dark alley that a "Pokemon" lived in and robbing the Pokemon hunters that came down the alley at oh-dark-thirty. Do you need to see what's in the hands of someone committing the forcible felony of robbery to use lethal force to stop the forcible felony? Certainly not in my state.

The "what's in his hands" issue in a vacuum of a hypothetical doesn't really equate with how things play out in reality. Nobody just walks up and points a random object at a passerby. They verbalize intent when they make threats, demand property, etc. They may impede movement in some fashion, generally by proximity and threat, but sometimes by physical assault or blocking of exits. All of the things that would play in to if a furtive movement shooting is legally justified apply equally here.

On using WML to identify people (in response to someone near your car, but this applies to most any scenario outside your home):

Is the answer to that too draw a gun and point it so you can illuminate that person?
In my state "pointing a firearm" is a crime.

Why do I care what's in their hand? Are they saying anything to me? Attempting to open my door?

Indiana specific, be very familiar with "Pointing a Firearm" if you decide to do this. Also be aware of startle response and be very sure of where your trigger finger is. Other states, you may need to be familiar with Brandishing or other laws dealing with display of a weapon when you can't legally shoot.

A WML adds another thing to manipulate in what's probably a high stress situation, and one you've likely not been in before. How are you training that?

And, to steal from Randy Harris:

The rules of engagement are different for cops and civilians. Cops can point guns at people in public that would get you arrested if you were doing that as a civilian. People need to understand that. The badge buys you fair amount of forgiveness that is just not there for non sworn personnel. So with that in mind......



A handheld is a pretty much mandatory piece of equipment whether you are carrying a gun or not. I can walk down any street in the world with a hand held light palmed and not break any laws, morals or ethics. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use a hand held to look for something I have dropped in the dark in public. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use the hand held to get someone's attention in public in a crowded venue by simply flashing the light and drawing their attention to me. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use a handheld to navigate my way through any building in the world if the power goes out. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use the already palmed light as a distraction device/OODA disruptor as the opening to a physical response (preemptive strike or clinch) to failed MUC. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use the handheld as "hammerfist helper" impact weapon if it is already in hand while managing the unknown contact. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use the light as a distraction device/OODA disruptor to help buy me a tiny sliver of time to draw my pistol. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can point a handheld light at ANYONE I choose to in public and at worst I will merely annoy them .... whereas if I point my WML (and the muzzle above it) at someone who I cannot clearly articulate needing to be shot I have arguably , by definition, committed aggravated assault.

All of these things (and many more) tell me I need a handheld out in public far more than I need a WML.



So once we have established that the handheld is probably a far better "plan A" in public for all the pre fight stuff then where is the WML useful?



Once the pistol comes out I am going to have to either shoot 1 handed or adapt my 2 handed grip to accommodate the hand held light. I do not have to do that with a WML.

Once I have established that someone needs to be shot the WML makes further illumination of them and their general area simpler.

Searching through a structure (which is generally a horrible idea for civilians) for unknowns (or known antagonists/combatants) is easier accomplished with a WML (yet it is still doable with a hand held ).

Using any long gun with a WML is easier than using any long gun with a hand held. You can still use a long gun with a hand held but it is much simpler with a WML.

Bunkering up in the bedroom, safe room, panic room, closet, ( or whatever) and waiting for them to come into the field of fire of your long gun is easier with a WML. At the point that people are illegally inside your domicile and coming to you , it can be argued that you still have an ethical and moral (if not legal ) responsibility to positively ID them before filling them full of buckshot or a half a mag of .223. A WML makes this have less moving parts than a hand held does (BUT this can also be accomplished with a strategically placed hand held left turned on....story for another time )

A WML (on a handgun) also serves as a spare light (assuming you have a hand held also) that you can use any way you need to. Want to use it as an "area denial tool" in a darkened structure? Take it off the pistol and turn it on ...now whoever enters the room or hallway is illuminated and you do not have to be located directly behind the light source.

A WML makes checking out the "bump in the night" in your boxer shorts and t shirt a lot easier. With only the gun itself to pick up you now have a free hand to turn door knobs or whatever. It can be done with a hand held but not as easily and you are only having to pick up 1 item since the light is attached to the gun. The home defense role is where the WML really shines (I'm a punny guy

) for the civilian defender.


The issue that I (and many others) have with the WML on a CCW gun is simply that the hand held does not point a muzzle at people and can be used BEFORE the gun comes out and the fact that once the WML in use you have now introduced lethal force into the equation. Period. As a police officer that is one thing...as a civilian it is something different. Once the gun comes out in public -especially urban areas- SOMEONE is committing a crime (either them before you drew or you now). A hand held light is far more forgiving in regards to where you point it and frankly far more useful for a wider range of tasks...like convincing unknown contacts that they are barking up the wrong tree. That is not something you can use a WML for without pulling the gun along with it....and trying to KEEP from having to pull the gun is why we avoid , deter and deescalate if possible.

For private citizens WMLs are at their best when attached to their tools they use to repel boarders (home defense guns). John Correia (Active Self Protection) has now watched and cataloged over 17000 gunfights on video and according to him exactly ONE would have been effected positively by having a WML on the defenders pistol...and that was a home invasion break-in in a darkened structure.....not a street mugging.

That does not mean the WML is a BAD idea on a CCW pistol ? No. No it absolutely does not mean that. It just means you will STILL have to use the handheld for 99+% of your illumination needs and you will (if you are like most people) need to fight that urge to "gets some use out of the expensive accessory" attached to your pistol. Unless a crime was being committed (or you can articulate why you reasonably believed one was about to be) your gun does not need to come out of the holster...as such your WML is a moot point unless a crime is being committed.... and as a non sworn civilian you are looking at a TINY sliver of incidences where the light on your gun will have any useful effect.

Me personally? After much training and practice and thoroughly looking at all sides of the equation I have WMLs on the home defense guns and no WMLs on the EDC guns. But that does not mean I NEVER will. And that does not mean I'm the final answer in YOUR particular situation. Do your own research and make your own informed decisions.

 

[Ruger_Ronin]

Nothing I can post here that hasn't already been said. Lights for me, whatever for thee. I have them on a couple of my HD guns, rifle and HG.

Their benefits FAR outweigh their hindrance.

 

[Biggredchev]

Im probably one of the few that actually answers my door regardless of the time. I dont live in a rich nice neighborhood and im friendly with most of my neighbors. Although if i dont know you or cant identify you via security cameras or my doorbell camera im on a higher alert. About 4 months ago my neighbor came home absolutely sauced, tried to take off with their 2yo and broke his wifes phone when she tried to stop him. She ran over and i let her use mine to call 911. He must have been popped quick because local pd brought the kid back within about 15 minutes of making the call. Another neighbors pipes froze about 10 at night when we got all that cold and snow a couple weeks ago. He came over, knocked on the door and asked to borrow my salamander. Got everything thawed out and heat tape replaced with no burst pipes. Ive probably got a dozen stories like that, Not every knock on the door at night is an ill intended person but i never answer it empty handed.

 

[tcecil88]

I have never understood the thinking that WML lights are not needed nor night sights. Why would anyone want to go into a potentially deadly situation without every advantage you can get? That situation may not be seem deadly to you, but what about if it's your teenager who is trying to sneak back into the house late at night? The WML will help identify the potential threat. Night sights help you aim your weapon better in low light if you choose not to have a WML and by chance can identify the target as a threat.
I for one have poor night vision, so I use both WML's and night sights on all my defensive weapons.

 

[lonehoosier]

TL;DR: No, you don't "need" one on a defensive carry piece but it's not a bad idea on a home defense gun *if* you use the splash of the light to identify targets and are properly trained/practiced. A handheld light is much more useful, prioritize that if you want supplemental light.

I'll just recycle a few posts. If they appear to quote people who aren't here, ignore that part.

Ref a defensive carry pistol (as opposed to home defense or duty carry):








On using WML to identify people (in response to someone near your car, but this applies to most any scenario outside your home):



Indiana specific, be very familiar with "Pointing a Firearm" if you decide to do this. Also be aware of startle response and be very sure of where your trigger finger is. Other states, you may need to be familiar with Brandishing or other laws dealing with display of a weapon when you can't legally shoot.

A WML adds another thing to manipulate in what's probably a high stress situation, and one you've likely not been in before. How are you training that?

And, to steal from Randy Harris:

Great read, thanks @BehindBlueI's

I always carry a handheld "plan A" and always have a WML "plan B" on all of my defense guns.

 

[G192127]

My lite throws a wide enough beam I can lite you up w/o pointing the pistol at you.
Besides,you can always opt not to turn the lite on

 

[JTL165]

Target discrimination.....that is all.

 

[smittygj]

I don't have any lights on my guns, something maybe I've overlooked, but I don't like the idea of giving my position away.

Marine I used to shoot with called them "shoot me" lights. He advocated single handed handgun use, and holding your light out away from your body when shining it.

 

[88E30M50]

With all this discussion of strobes maybe we should start a thread for discussion of strobes in defensive use. Personally I avoid them completely. I like to keep it simple. IMO "on" and "off" should be the only modes that can be activated by a normal press of the button. No high/low modes that can be activated by a simple quick button press. Same with strobes, don't mind the capability I guess but I don't want it getting in the way of "on"/"off".

I thought the stobe on a defensive light was to set the mood for the victory dance you are doing over the intruders carcass

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Because I can. /thread

 

[bobzilla]

Not sure if youve actually tried that in a totally dark place but it personally stuns myself even being behind the light lol.

Light is the quickest way to identify a potential threat in the dark, unless you own night vision goggles, which would be pretty friggin sweet.

Use it a little more. You get used to it (unless you’re epileptic) and learn to use it.
I run one on the AR that is a nice tight beam out to 90yards to help illuminate’yotes