"Light Trigger Pull Liability" from Massad Ayoob

[FishnHunt]

Saw this on Hickok45's Facebook feed and didn't see it posted here. Though y'all might find it a good read... Agree or disagree, it's pretty hard to argue with his experience.

Facts About "Light Trigger Pull Liability"

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I read that just a few minutes ago too. It was a good read.

 

[AllenM]

Good read and I agree whole hardheartedly. Like op says it is hard to argue with his experiance

 

[BehindBlueI's]

in which it was discovered that even well-trained cops did not realize their fingers were touching their triggers in high-stress simulated danger situations. It’s called “trigger affirmation” by training expert Tom Aveni, and also “trigger confirmation” or “trigger verification.” And it can happen even with the most highly trained personnel.

...and this is why I prefer DA/SA guns. Folks can quote movie characters about booger hooks all they want. Reality isn't the same.

It boils down to this, at least locally:

A good shoot is a good shoot. It doesn't matter what you use. The last self defense shooting I was on, a store clerk came up behind the suspect, shot him in the back of the head at the base of the skull with a .45, and dropped him. The homicide screening prosecutor came out, told the lead detective not to even Mirandize the guy and just ask if he wanted to make a statement, and said it was a no file right there on the scene. Good shoot. The gun was processed, of course, but the decision was made before the crime lab tech even picked the gun up. If it was later discovered to have a 0.001 lb trigger, who cares? Good shoot = good shoot.

The issue with the ultra light trigger is..."but there’s no such thing as a “justifiable accident” or as I usually put it, you can't justifiably accidentally shoot someone. Poop happens. It happens easier when you're hyped up and under stress. I've double tapped a light trigger at the range and sent an extra round down range. It happens. At the range, who cares, I just messed up my group a bit and can't brag about it on the Internet without photoshopping it first, in real life that may be the difference between good shoot and excessive force.

 

[AndersonIN]

"in real life that may be the difference between good shoot and excessive force."

How is justification to use deadly force and an intentional or unintentional "double tap" be considered excessive? Cause I intended to kill them "deader"? Now I understand if I drop a mag on them but a "double tap"?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

"in real life that may be the difference between good shoot and excessive force."

How is justification to use deadly force and an intentional or unintentional "double tap" be considered excessive? Cause I intended to kill them "deader"? Now I understand if I drop a mag on them but a "double tap"?

I'm not really talking about sending two bullets in a tenth of a second, I'm just using the range as an example where even under zero stress with too light of a trigger it's relatively easy to fire a round by accident. I'm just saying with an ultra light trigger its easier to send another round. Once the person is no longer a threat, further use of force is excessive. Let's say your are confronted by someone with a knife. Your first shot drops them and they drop the knife and lay their moaning. You bring the gun out of recoil and cover them to make sure they aren't going to get up, go for the knife again, etc. and due to stress, adrenaline shakes, etc. you send another round accidentally and finish them off. Do you think that second round is justified?

 

[AndersonIN]

I'm not really talking about sending two bullets in a tenth of a second, I'm just using the range as an example where even under zero stress with too light of a trigger it's relatively easy to fire a round by accident. I'm just saying with an ultra light trigger its easier to send another round. Once the person is no longer a threat, further use of force is excessive. Let's say your are confronted by someone with a knife. Your first shot drops them and they drop the knife and lay their moaning. You bring the gun out of recoil and cover them to make sure they aren't going to get up, go for the knife again, etc. and due to stress, adrenaline shakes, etc. you send another round accidentally and finish them off. Do you think that second round is justified?

Thanks for the clarification. No I certainly wouldn't. Even if I could "justify" it to a court I could never justify it to myself!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks for the clarification. No I certainly wouldn't. Even if I could "justify" it to a court I could never justify it to myself!

No problem, I worded it poorly the first go around. I'm glad you asked so I could clarify and remove the ambiguity I didn't realize I had in the first post.

 

[looney2ns]

...and this is why I prefer DA/SA guns. Folks can quote movie characters about booger hooks all they want. Reality isn't the same.

It boils down to this, at least locally:

A good shoot is a good shoot. It doesn't matter what you use. The last self defense shooting I was on, a store clerk came up behind the suspect, shot him in the back of the head at the base of the skull with a .45, and dropped him. The homicide screening prosecutor came out, told the lead detective not to even Mirandize the guy and just ask if he wanted to make a statement, and said it was a no file right there on the scene. Good shoot. The gun was processed, of course, but the decision was made before the crime lab tech even picked the gun up. If it was later discovered to have a 0.001 lb trigger, who cares? Good shoot = good shoot.

The issue with the ultra light trigger is..."but there’s no such thing as a “justifiable accident” or as I usually put it, you can't justifiably accidentally shoot someone. Poop happens. It happens easier when you're hyped up and under stress. I've double tapped a light trigger at the range and sent an extra round down range. It happens. At the range, who cares, I just messed up my group a bit and can't brag about it on the Internet without photoshopping it first, in real life that may be the difference between good shoot and excessive force.

Curious, since it was deemed a good shoot, why is the gun still processed?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Curious, since it was deemed a good shoot, why is the gun still processed?

You'd have to ask the prosecutor, but I *think* it's just butt covering. Make sure the bullet in the dead robber matches the gun and corroborate the shooter's story.

 

[wesnellans]

I read the article, and, my take, is that (not very shockingly) the focus/concern is with the "custom", "ultra-light" trigger. What about a stock gun, say, a VP9, PPQ, or the like, that's unmolested? Since it's a factory, standard trigger, should there be/would there be any concern or focus on such a gun in a defensive shoot? Logic tells me no, BUT.... since we're talking about the realm of litigation.....

 

[FishnHunt]

I read the article, and, my take, is that (not very shockingly) the focus/concern is with the "custom", "ultra-light" trigger. What about a stock gun, say, a VP9, PPQ, or the like, that's unmolested? Since it's a factory, standard trigger, should there be/would there be any concern or focus on such a gun in a defensive shoot? Logic tells me no, BUT.... since we're talking about the realm of litigation.....

He talked a little about Glock 34's & 35's being classed as "sport" firearms, made for competition, and that the NYPD would actually modify them to increase the trigger pull before duty use. Judging from that, I would ask how each individual firearm is classified and go from there. I would think if it's factory you're probably ok, IMO.

 

[halfmileharry]

There are some people with arthritis, weak hands, that pretty much have to use lighter triggers to even be able to use a gun. Thoughts on this?

 

[drillsgt]

There are some people with arthritis, weak hands, that pretty much have to use lighter triggers to even be able to use a gun. Thoughts on this?

There's plenty of "light" stock triggers out there that would probably do just fine. But if you listened to everything Aboob says with all his horror stories then you would be too scared to even use a gun in self-defense. I got tired of reading his stuff because every article, even if totally unrelated to the subject he was writing about, had to have something about him winning some recent competition or other.

 

[dudley0]

You'd have to ask the prosecutor, but I *think* it's just butt covering. Make sure the bullet in the dead robber matches the gun and corroborate the shooter's story.

Off topic a bit here... but when you have a shoot that is deemed justified from the get go, do you typically just relinquish the fired gun or do you have to give up all firearms on your person?

Odd question I know. I am phasing into having a BUG on me instead of just in my GHB. Would the other firearms on or about my person be considered for processing?

I have more at home, but that would seem like a very long distance to travel unarmed after something like that happened.

 

[cedartop]

There's plenty of "light" stock triggers out there that would probably do just fine. But if you listened to everything Aboob says with all his horror stories then you would be too scared to even use a gun in self-defense. ..

This.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

but when you have a shoot that is deemed justified from the get go, do you typically just relinquish the fired gun or do you have to give up all firearms on your person?

Depends on what the warrant says. I have seen it both ways.

I have more at home, but that would seem like a very long distance to travel unarmed after something like that happened.

Find the gun you like. Then buy four guns: one to carry, one in the safe in reserve, one at the gunsmith, one off your property.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Logic tells me no, BUT.... since we're talking about the realm of litigation.....

It depends on the type of litigation.

Criminal? I could care less. In self-defense you already admit you did it on purpose, you just have to have a real good reason.

Civil? This is what the insurance company or reinsurance company brings in Mas for. Negligent? Accident? It depends on what happened.

I wouldn't go screwing with my carry guns. Leave it plain Jane, and leave all the Rambo crap off of it too (and all the stupid, dumbass Deathhead Nazi crap that is so frickin' popular now).

 

[dudley0]

Depends on what the warrant says. I have seen it both ways.



Find the gun you like. Then buy four guns: one to carry, one in the safe in reserve, one at the gunsmith, one off your property.

Have two of my EDC right now. More of my BUG. Have thought long and hard about getting the same sights on the second EDC just for a reason like this.

Have been reading where some folks in the know say to not practice with your EDC after you have deemed it reliable. Instead they say to buy another copy to practice and train with.

Still working on getting my head around that one... cost wise.

 

[NHT3]

...and this is why I prefer DA/SA guns. Folks can quote movie characters about booger hooks all they want. Reality isn't the same.

It boils down to this, at least locally:

A good shoot is a good shoot. It doesn't matter what you use. The last self defense shooting I was on, a store clerk came up behind the suspect, shot him in the back of the head at the base of the skull with a .45, and dropped him. The homicide screening prosecutor came out, told the lead detective not to even Mirandize the guy and just ask if he wanted to make a statement, and said it was a no file right there on the scene. Good shoot. The gun was processed, of course, but the decision was made before the crime lab tech even picked the gun up. If it was later discovered to have a 0.001 lb trigger, who cares? Good shoot = good shoot.

The issue with the ultra light trigger is..."but there’s no such thing as a “justifiable accident” or as I usually put it, you can't justifiably accidentally shoot someone. Poop happens. It happens easier when you're hyped up and under stress. I've double tapped a light trigger at the range and sent an extra round down range. It happens. At the range, who cares, I just messed up my group a bit and can't brag about it on the Internet without photoshopping it first, in real life that may be the difference between good shoot and excessive force.

Thank you BehindblueIs for a voice of reason. BehindblueIs hasn't written any books that I know of but I do know he sees it every day, studies it and has a wealth of real world experience. A is a good shoot is a good shoot, anything else and you are in hot water. That makes perfect sense to me even if we all would probably agree that our judicial system can be a little bit skewed at times.
If Glock considers 5.5 pounds optimum does that make a 1911 (like the one I have that was ordered with a 3.5 pound trigger) a killing machine just waiting to go off? I guess everyone that has a 1911 with less than a 5.5 pound trigger should drop them off with me, just to be on the safe side.
I pray I never have to find out, but hitting exactly where I'm aiming is why I practice and train and I have found that I do that more consistently with a good trigger. Everyone has to make their own decision and live with it but personally if I ever feel that eminent threat to my life I want to give myself the best chance of stopping the threat with the fewest number of shots possible. Just as a side note, this is what you get with 12 pound triggers Suspect shot 21 times :: New York Criminal Lawyer Blog
I"ll take my chances with the justice system rather than hoping for mercy from some thug. Thanks again BehindblueIs for your insight into subjects that most of us never delve into.


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