Lessons learned in the GPM shooting

[88E30M50]

Before the dupe police shut this one down, this is not a dupe of the break room discussion, but instead a focus on what we can learn or confirm from the Greenwood Park Mall shooting. The Break Room discussion is largely political, this one is more practical.

Let’s talk through the shooting in the Greenwood Park Mall to see if it changes any commonly held truths. First up for me is that ‘No Guns’ signs are only an insurance requirement and EVERYONE on the thinking side of the earth acknowledges that. Even Simon Property Group is thanking the Armed Samaritan for ignoring their signs.

Next up for me is that 9mm did the job as an unqualified success. I’m a .40 guy that has always preferred .40, .357 Sig or .45. I do carry 9mm but feel better with a larger caliber. This shoot changes that for me somewhat.

Third, capacity matters. If the Armed Samaritan were carrying a J-frame, Sig 238 or other small pocket sized pistol, would he have been able to succeed as he did? Would 5 or 6 rounds from a small pistol been enough to allow successful engagement? That would be a tough call.

Another issue is training. There are many on this site that have said that it’s irresponsible to carry without formal training. This shooting shows that responsibility is required for gaining skills and training is just one path to that goal. Discipline and practice go a long way. Training is great but the same skills can be obtained in other ways.

The biggest lesson here to me though, is mindset. The Armed Samaritan seems to have had a clarity in mission amid a chaotic situation. Each of his actions look to be purposeful and well executed.

 

[Cameramonkey]

See how you shoot at 50 yards with your EDC. I did this after the parade shooting realizing that is probably my cutoff for engagement. ( I’m not trying @100 because odds are I’m just going the other way instead because it’s not a direct threat to me.)

It wasn’t pretty, but 5/5 hits.

Find your limits and know how far is “too far “ with your EDC.

 

[bobzilla]

See how you shoot at 50 yards with your EDC. I did this after the parade shooting realizing that is probably my cutoff for engagement. ( I’m not trying @100 because odds are I’m just going the other way instead because it’s not a direct threat to me.)

It wasn’t pretty, but 5/5 hits.

Find your limits and know how far is “too far “ with your EDC.

The bigger question I raised to myself is the EDC. I need to look up the ballistics differences for the .45 from a 3,4 and 5" barrel

 

[Jaybird1980]

See how you shoot at 50 yards with your EDC. I did this after the parade shooting realizing that is probably my cutoff for engagement. ( I’m not trying @100 because odds are I’m just going the other way instead because it’s not a direct threat to me.)

It wasn’t pretty, but 5/5 hits.

Find your limits and know how far is “too far “ with your EDC.

Next time start at the target, sprint to the shooting station, then fire rounds at target. Won't replicate it exactly, but it will be closer.

 

[88E30M50]

The 50 yard shot is a good exercise. It’s been argued on INGO in the past that if you are shooting beyond 10 yards, then it is probably not a good shoot. The GPM shooting should hopefully put that idea to rest.

A couple of weeks back, I was down at HHRP practicing with 1911s and was able to land 9 of 10 rounds on silhouette sized steel at 100 yards. But, when I try to do that with my Sigs, I struggle. 9/10 with no pressure is not bad, but this spring when we had a 50 yard challenge at a group shoot, a bit of pressure challenged a lot of us. I didn’t do well at 50 with the same gun I did well with at 100. Pressure matters.

 

[88E30M50]

Next time start at the target, sprint to the shooting station, then fire rounds at target. Won't replicate it exactly, but it will be closer.

I’m going to give this a try the next time I’ve got HHRP all to myself.

 

[Cameramonkey]

yeah, same day for giggles I sent 15 rounds out at the 150 yard target and got 2 hits on a 12x12 plate. Not sure how errant the rest were But it’s possible to hit at that distance. (I sure wouldn’t try it if it was more than just the shooter )

 

[Cameramonkey]

I’m going to give this a try the next time I’ve got HHRP all to myself.

Or get everyone else to join you. (Waiting for the slowest one to get back to the line of course)

 

[Yup!]

I generally don’t carry a spare mag, but to see him go through 10 rounds on one perp in 15 seconds, I’m gonna start carrying a spare. As mentioned in the break room thread - we may not have the luxury of immediate backup, you could be the only responder for many minutes.

 

[223 Gunner]

I sometimes carry a J frame 640 Pro Series with .38+P's and two speed strips each containing 5 rounds.
For a total of 15 rounds. I think solid hits with the +P's would have taken him out.
Although I need to be more proficient with reloading using speed strips.

And sometimes I pocket carry a Glock 42 .380 with two spare 6 round mags. The mag in the pistol holds 7 + 1 in the chamber.
I'm not sure on that one at 50 yards, I would like to think that I would close the gap a little. Having never been in that situation, who knows how I will really act/react?
One of many reasons I with hold judgement with officer involved shootings that make the news. None of know how we will act/react in a situation like that.
Also keeping in mind that there is an Attorney attached to every round fired.

 

[Refrigerator27]

A couple things I learned:

1. Practice at the range with a full magazine.

Very often I find myself loading only 5 shots because
a. I hate loading
b. I hate burning through a magazine every 10 seconds while at the range.

This situation showed that you may very well be using all your rounds in your magazine (whether 10,15,17 etc). Practice as such.

2. Carry Insurance doesn’t matter if you do everything right and where you are.

Carry insurance is becoming a bigger and bigger thing however Eli didn’t have it since he was constitutionally carrying. Because he executed everything correctly, based on cctv footage, he is fine. Additionally Johnson county is relatively Red so he most likely won’t face any charges. However if this happened in Marion county or Bloomington, might have had a different outcome on a legal standpoint. Insurance matters where you spend your time and if you properly defend yourself. This is the kicker, since you better do everything right. Kyle Rittenhouse did everything right and was able to walk (after his court case). Eli did everything right, but will you?

3. Greenwood park mall is becoming a **** show

Beginning of the end of the mall imo. They had this shooting, 2 armed robberies the beginning of the year, and a lady pistol whipped in the parking lot etc. Guess I’m not shopping there anymore. Avoiding crowds more than ever.

 

[jbombelli]

I'm not convinced that the signs are an insurance requirement. If they were you'd see them all over the place.

 

[rooster]

interesting chart since we are talking trajectories

Handgun Trajectory Table

 

[bwframe]

Biggest takeaway that I'm seeing is to be prepared. Eli was ready for the gunfight. He wasn't shooting "at" the bad guy, his rounds went where they were put.

Same could be said for equipment. Anything less than what was used here could be questioned as to whether it would have been as effective?

From the draw to using cover and support to the first shot, nothing here was a guess to whether it would maybe work or not against the threat.

None of the "my bellygun has always kept me alive," or I don't feel undergunned with my mousegun happened here. Would the "comfortable" carry gun options held up against this real world encounter?

 

[88E30M50]

I'm not convinced that the signs are an insurance requirement. If they were you'd see them all over the place.

You are probably right.

 

[jimmothy86]

You are probably right.

Idk if you've been paying attention, but after July 2nd they popped up at almost every store I go to, whereas before that date, Costco was pretty much there only place I couldn't carry.

It's like with low frequency of carry they were mostly fine with it, but now that literally anyone can, they're posting up signs, so insurance or guidance from their legal teams seems to be a pretty likely explanation.

 

[chipbennett]

Let’s talk through the shooting in the Greenwood Park Mall to see if it changes any commonly held truths. First up for me is that ‘No Guns’ signs are only an insurance requirement and EVERYONE on the thinking side of the earth acknowledges that. Even Simon Property Group is thanking the Armed Samaritan for ignoring their signs.

The only meaningful takeaway is the reminder that, in Indiana, such signs can be ignored with impunity. I don't have to care about their existence, much less, the reason they were put there.

Next up for me is that 9mm did the job as an unqualified success. I’m a .40 guy that has always preferred .40, .357 Sig or .45. I do carry 9mm but feel better with a larger caliber. This shoot changes that for me somewhat.

My EDC is 9mm. Even so, I recall reading in the past that .22LR is responsible for more kills than any other caliber? Put the rounds where they're supposed to go, and they'll be effective, mostly regardless of caliber.

Third, capacity matters. If the Armed Samaritan were carrying a J-frame, Sig 238 or other small pocket sized pistol, would he have been able to succeed as he did? Would 5 or 6 rounds from a small pistol been enough to allow successful engagement? That would be a tough call.

Yep. Might have to consider carrying a spare magazine.

Another issue is training. There are many on this site that have said that it’s irresponsible to carry without formal training. This shooting shows that responsibility is required for gaining skills and training is just one path to that goal. Discipline and practice go a long way. Training is great but the same skills can be obtained in other ways.

The hero was trained; it was just informal training by his grandfather, not formal training by a certified trainer. Perhaps the takeaway should be that training doesn't have to be formal/conducted by a certified trainer to be effective. The key is to train and to practice, period.

The biggest lesson here to me though, is mindset. The Armed Samaritan seems to have had a clarity in mission amid a chaotic situation. Each of his actions look to be purposeful and well executed.

Yes. This is, to me, the most impressive aspect of this incident. He was instantly willing and able to act, and did so. His situational awareness saved many lives that day.

 

[chipbennett]

Idk if you've been paying attention, but after July 2nd they popped up at almost every store I go to, whereas before that date, Costco was pretty much there only place I couldn't carry.

It's like with low frequency of carry they were mostly fine with it, but now that literally anyone can, they're posting up signs, so insurance or guidance from their legal teams seems to be a pretty likely explanation.

Why can't you carry at Costco?

 

[russc2542]

I’m going to give this a try the next time I’ve got HHRP all to myself.

Rather than running downrange, just leave the gun on the bench and run to the metal target shed and back as fast as you can without twisting an ankle. Or do some jumping jacks or pushups near the bench.

Don't have to be alone, just be mindful of who else is around. Even though we don't have any rules about rate of fire, some folks do get nervous about anything more than stationary paper punching.

 

[KLB]

Why can't you carry at Costco?

I'm guessing he honored the signs posted.