Kel-tec's Saiga killer?

[Lobo]

.

 

[IndyS12]

Crap. I need to buy one. Then it can sit in my safe next to the Saiga.

 

[jd4320t]

I like it but I'd like to see a single magazine tube version.

 

[wetidlerjr]

I don't know. It's different.

 

[indyk]

+1

It's cool.... but it's definitely NOT a Saiga killer. Not even close.

Comparing that to a Saiga 12 is not an accurate comparison.
You would be comparing Apples to Oranges here folks..


But I do like the look of that keltec 12, 14 rounds!
isnt the future cool

 

[243rem700]

I think it is a cool and innovative design. I would like to have one to play with. If it is reliable, tough, and not unbearably heavy it could be a great shotgun.

 

[snowman46919]

I am extremely torn on whether to laugh or drool.

 

[Zoub]

Reminds me of the South African Neostead.

Oh, and that's nowhere near a "Saiga killer". It's not even a "Saiga annoyer".

I have always found the Neostad to be annoying.

As for the Kel tec, 14 rounds in the front third of the gun? Crappy balance and very heavy out front, strike 1. Bottom eject, strike 2.

A folder SBS with 3 in each tube , 3+3+1 and shorter stock, Hmmmm?

PS: Does the Keltec even fold?

 

[Disposable Heart]

Saw that on Ktog the other night. IMHO as a shotgun nut, it's stupid as all get out.

Few things:
1. Dutch loading: Folks wanting to load slugs in one and buck in other. In a high strain situation, extra buttons, selectability of ammo, etc... are extra things that are solutions looking for problems. Carry some slugs and work on a training regimine that allows for cycling of slugs in your scatterstick instead of relying upon a gimmicked weapon whose reliability is yet to be determined.
2. Reliability: Who knows how well this will work. Selective feeding tubes seems like a reliability nightmare. Keltec makes some good weapons, but I feel they put an aweful lot of reliance upon the "durability" of polymer. Might I add that I have SHOT OUT a SU-16 before, 1K rounds and the reciever cracked. While 12 gauge's pressure isn't even close to a 5.56, I could imagine the recoil shaking the gun apart, but we don't know. Given my experience, I am not looking forward to these.
3. Loading time: Saiga killer? No. Consider the loading time: Saiga loads 14+ (drums more) rounds in a few seconds. Want a pump action, get a proper, time tested pump action. Need more than the 7+1 of a standard shotgun? Carry more ammo, practice and learn to load properly instead of relying upon gimmicks. I highly suggest at this point for someone to get Magpul's Art of the Dynamic Shotgun. Watch that and practice what they teach, you will sneer at any crazy designs...

All in all, longer time in reloading compared to a Saiga, LOTS of polymer (compared to stamped steel of the Saiga, I would trust metal over plastic in high recoil environments), increased complexity of the action of the Keltec and all of this for the same price as the Saiga? Pass. Time tested designs or simple ones, not gimmicked poly sortagunz. Want a lighter weight scatter stick? Mossberg's and Maverick's alloy recievers are VERY light compared to the heavy 870s.

 

[malern28us]

Saw that on Ktog the other night. IMHO as a shotgun nut, it's stupid as all get out.

Few things:
1. Dutch loading: Folks wanting to load slugs in one and buck in other. In a high strain situation, extra buttons, selectability of ammo, etc... are extra things that are solutions looking for problems. Carry some slugs and work on a training regimine that allows for cycling of slugs in your scatterstick instead of relying upon a gimmicked weapon whose reliability is yet to be determined.
2. Reliability: Who knows how well this will work. Selective feeding tubes seems like a reliability nightmare. Keltec makes some good weapons, but I feel they put an aweful lot of reliance upon the "durability" of polymer. Might I add that I have SHOT OUT a SU-16 before, 1K rounds and the reciever cracked. While 12 gauge's pressure isn't even close to a 5.56, I could imagine the recoil shaking the gun apart, but we don't know. Given my experience, I am not looking forward to these.
3. Loading time: Saiga killer? No. Consider the loading time: Saiga loads 14+ (drums more) rounds in a few seconds. Want a pump action, get a proper, time tested pump action. Need more than the 7+1 of a standard shotgun? Carry more ammo, practice and learn to load properly instead of relying upon gimmicks. I highly suggest at this point for someone to get Magpul's Art of the Dynamic Shotgun. Watch that and practice what they teach, you will sneer at any crazy designs...

All in all, longer time in reloading compared to a Saiga, LOTS of polymer (compared to stamped steel of the Saiga, I would trust metal over plastic in high recoil environments), increased complexity of the action of the Keltec and all of this for the same price as the Saiga? Pass. Time tested designs or simple ones, not gimmicked poly sortagunz. Want a lighter weight scatter stick? Mossberg's and Maverick's alloy recievers are VERY light compared to the heavy 870s.

I am not really with you on all points.
I thought in recoil and durability testing by other manufacturers that polymer exceeded metal in most aspects. I thought that all the "experts" say that polymer helps to absorb recoil pulses. Just wondering.
I love the "outside the box" thinking of Keltecs new toy.

 

[Kase]

I think Saiga is pretty safe honestly

 

[Disposable Heart]

I am not really with you on all points.
I thought in recoil and durability testing by other manufacturers that polymer exceeded metal in most aspects. I thought that all the "experts" say that polymer helps to absorb recoil pulses. Just wondering.
I love the "outside the box" thinking of Keltecs new toy.

I am not necessarily saying that polymer doesn't exceed steel, but what I am saying is that I have shot out a Keltec design within 1K rounds. The polymer reciever cracked (as well as damaged much of the METAL internals). Keltec seems to put alot of reliance upon polymer and alloys (instead of steel) rather than beefing up their design a touch.

Keltec's response was that the XM193 I was shooting exceeded the parameters of the rifle, despite what the manual and barrel chamber indication said (5.56 NATO, not .223). At least, for the round count I reported to them...

I would be more apt to blame Keltec's DESIGN rather than the material. But the placement of the material in the rifle was exceeded by the usage. I did not abuse the rifle, did not rapid fire it. But the materials failed under normal condition. This isn't the first time. I had a PF9 crack on me (sent it back, sold it when it came back, I did purchase another one the other day) and had a P3AT polymer frame begin to stretch after 100 rounds (holes for the take down pin were elongated, the metal "reciever" could physically move front/back in the polymer frame). While I have had issues with some of their designs, I will still carry my PF9, but not going to put a ton of ammo through it, and nothing +P.

I understand that many people have had a great deal more ammo and time through theirs. I am probably the VERY slim margin of failure their products have had. But I will not trust a high round count Keltec given my experience with them, or designs that have high recoil impulse.

 

[Ziggy01]

It is interesting to say the least.

 

[bigcraig]

Interesting, yes.
Saiga12 killer, not even close.

That said, if it is a quality product and durable, I think it would make a good CQ shotgun due to its size and capacity.

 

[JohnP82]

Wow! Interesting!

 

[Yeah]

Kel-tec is firmly in the All Hat camp with their current offerings and this looks likely to expand that empire. But I wouldn't mind putting my hands on one of these to confirm that impression.

 

[CountryBoy19]

As for the Kel tec, 14 rounds in the front third of the gun? Crappy balance and very heavy out front, strike 1 You must also consider that "out front" in a bull-pup design like this isn't really "out front" at all. The additional weight will likely help with the balance rather than hamper it.. Bottom eject, strike 2. Why is that a strike? I like bottom eject shotguns, is there something I'm missing?

A folder SBS with 3 in each tube , 3+3+1 and shorter stock, Hmmmm?

PS: Does the Keltec even fold?No, it's a bull-pup, it doesn't need to fold.

Saw that on Ktog the other night. IMHO as a shotgun nut, it's stupid as all get out.

Few things:
1. Dutch loading: Folks wanting to load slugs in one and buck in other. In a high strain situation, extra buttons, selectability of ammo, etc... are extra things that are solutions looking for problems. Carry some slugs and work on a training regimine that allows for cycling of slugs in your scatterstick instead of relying upon a gimmicked weapon whose reliability is yet to be determined. Who says that you have to load a dutch loading? If this is anything like the Neostead you can choose tube 1 (empties all of tube 1 then switches to tube 2), tube 2 (opposite of tube one), or alternate. IIRC that selector is different from the safety. There is nothing to make a high stress situation difficult, you already have it set on the selecting you will most likely need in a high-stress situation. IMHO, if this is reliable there is absolutely nothing that a standard shotgun can do that this can't do better. If you need me to explain this I will. Typically dutch means alternating, you don't have to alternate.
2. Reliability: Who knows how well this will work. Selective feeding tubes seems like a reliability nightmare. Could be, I am definitely interested, but I won't be an early adopter, I'll wait and see how things turn out. Keltec makes some good weapons, but I feel they put an aweful lot of reliance upon the "durability" of polymer. Might I add that I have SHOT OUT a SU-16 before, 1K rounds and the reciever cracked. While 12 gauge's pressure isn't even close to a 5.56, I could imagine the recoil shaking the gun apart, but we don't know. Given my experience, I am not looking forward to these.
3. Loading time: Saiga killer? No. Consider the loading time: Saiga loads 14+ (drums more) rounds in a few seconds. Want a pump action, get a proper, time tested pump action. Need more than the 7+1 of a standard shotgun? Carry more ammo, practice and learn to load properly instead of relying upon gimmicks. I highly suggest at this point for someone to get Magpul's Art of the Dynamic Shotgun. Watch that and practice what they teach, you will sneer at any crazy designs...

All in all, longer time in reloading compared to a Saiga, LOTS of polymer (compared to stamped steel of the Saiga, I would trust metal over plastic in high recoil environments), increased complexity of the action of the Keltec and all of this for the same price as the Saiga? Pass. Time tested designs or simple ones, not gimmicked poly sortagunz. Want a lighter weight scatter stick? Mossberg's and Maverick's alloy recievers are VERY light compared to the heavy 870s.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Alright, I am game! I consider it dutch loading as the rounds are already in the tube. I have seen folks load the final (first loaded) rounds as slugs, belaboring under the idea that if the buck don't get 'em, the slugs will. Personally, if the buck didn't get 'em in my home, the slugs sure as heck won't either.

My rifle sighted mossy in the trunk of the car is loaded with slugs for a bit more distance. I keep some buck in my bag if I have to go indoors. Any more than that for long range, I grab my M70 Winchester in .270. The home 870 is nothing but buck, no slugs. Slugs are available, but they don't touch the gun due to penetration concerns.

I learned via the Magpul way. Ammo selection is not done with the gun, it's done with the user, but a majority of a SHOTGUN's work is done with SHOT.

Now, if Keltec made a 14 round, non-selectable shotgun, if reliable, that would be pretty cool admittedly.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I learned via the Magpul way. Ammo selection is not done with the gun, it's done with the user, but a majority of a SHOTGUN's work is done with SHOT.

Is that possibly because there are very few, if any, guns out there that give the user the ability to truly select the ammo? Dutch loading etc doesn't really count as "selecting" the ammo. I don't know of any other firearms (other than obscure or rare ones) that allow the user to select from 2 different ammunition feed devices/locations giving the user 100% control over what ammunition gets fed at one time.

I am typically a fan of KISS, but in this case, I don't think adding a selectability option will really remove KISS from the equation. If nothing else you have 14+1 rounds of ammo to feed from allowing you much more shooting before reloading. I'll take a 14+1 round shotgun over a 5+1 round shotgun any day, even if the latter can be reloaded faster.



Btw, a little more research on my part seems to indicate that the selector is not like that of the Neostead. It is a manual selector and it switches to the other tube when the selected tube is empty. It also has a middle position that will allow you to empty the gun without feeding a round from the tube.

IMHO the only downfall I can think of with that selector is that if it gets moved by mistake (or not fully engaged to a selected position) in a gun-fight you may very well pull the trigger on an empty chamber because the selector somehow ended up in the middle position.

It was also hinted that there may be a semi-auto in the works, but that is just speculation as of right now. I'm not really sure of the credibility of the sources I read so I'm not going to say either way.

 

[CountryBoy19]

More pics

Also, speculation on the cost says it will be $7-800 based upon a comment by a Kel-tec employee that said you should be able to buy 2 for the price of a single RFB

Based upon these pics, I think the receiver is all or mostly steel. IMHO should be far less concern about longevity there, but don't take my word for it, I'm just speculating.