Is it a church or a school?

[ashenfang]

Indiana doesn't have too many places where it is legally OFF LIMITS.

Per Indiana Code, with a permit, you MAY NOT carry at;

In or on school property
On a School Bus
On Property being used as a school function
Exemption being dropping kids off at school and you remain in the vehicle
Commercial Aircraft
Controlled Areas of an Airport
State Fair
Shipping Port
Riverboat casino
Falls of Ohio State Park

So this leads me to my question, which is two parts,

A private school where the church is also located in the same building. Is this ALWAYS considered a school, or just on school days?

A private school where the school building is physically separated from the church building but is located on the same property. Is is legal to carry into the church?

 

[Tyler-The-Piker]

A private school where the church is also located in the same building. Is this ALWAYS considered a school?

A private school where the school building is physically separated from the church building but is located on the same property. Is it legal to carry into the church?

Yes.
No.

 

[ashenfang]

That's what I was thinking but wanted to double check. My assumption was that in either of these two cases, the school takes priority and therefore the property will ALWAYS be considered a school whether public or private.

 

[SEIndSAM]

Yep, a school is a school 24/7/365.

 

[ashenfang]

On a side note, I presume any churches that feature a "Sunday school" don't count as a school?

 

[jedi]

Indiana doesn't have too many places where it is legally OFF LIMITS.

Per Indiana Code, with a permit, you MAY NOT carry at;

In or on school property
On a School Bus
On Property being used as a school function
Exemption being dropping kids off at school and you remain in the vehicle
Commercial Aircraft
Controlled Areas of an Airport
State Fair
Shipping Port
Riverboat casino
Falls of Ohio State Park

Some cards for you to remember the rules.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...-wallet-gun-laws-w-ic-no-gun-sign-no-biz.html

Plus some light reading on where a school ends.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry-issues-self-defense/76519-where-does-school-end.html
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...se/294399-where-does-school-end-part-2-a.html

So this leads me to my question, which is two parts,

A private school where the church is also located in the same building. Is this ALWAYS considered a school, or just on school days?

The entire parcel of land where the building is on is considered a school 24/7/365. The only 'safe' part is the public sidewalk.

A private school where the school building is physically separated from the church building but is located on the same property. Is is legal to carry into the church?

It depends on who owns the land and the building. In most cases the landowner also owns the building but not always true espeically with catholic schools.
The diocese of xxxx owns ALL the land for the catholic schools but they do not always own the school.

If private school and land is owned by same owner then the entire parcel is once again a school.
If private school is owned by "school a" and the land is owned by "owner b" who also owns the church then the only 'school zone' is the physcial school building.

You don't see a lot of this with schools but you do bump into this with federal properties in commerical areas. For example a post office (by itself) is a GFZ as it's federal property. However a post office in a strip mall the only portion of the mall that is a GFZ is the physcicall post office location since 99.99% of the time the post office is renting the space from a land owner (ie. they do NOT own the parcel of land).

The GIS websites for each county is your friend in finding this information out.
Do a google search for "<indiana county> + Indiana + GIS and you will get to the website with the map of parcels and who owns the land.

 

[jedi]

On a side note, I presume any churches that feature a "Sunday school" don't count as a school?

school must be licensed by the state of indiana. If that school takes the ISTEP they are licensed.
Also do not forget that day care centers are GFZ as well. Your church may have a day care center (again must be LICENSED) and if they do then the place is a GFZ as well.

 

[worddoer]

I have an additional question...

My church has 2 campuses. Our north campus is looking at renting a portion of our building to a small private school. As I understand it, this would mean that our entire north campus property would change into a gun free zone.

However, it is also my understanding that with written permission from the school leadership, those who are authorized may carry during church services. If that is correct, who would be "school leadership"? Would a superintendent (or whatever they call them in the private school world) be sufficient? Is there a requirement that there must be a school board and only that board can provide permission?

 

[jedi]

I have an additional question...

My church has 2 campuses. Our north campus is looking at renting a portion of our building to a small private school. As I understand it, this would mean that our entire north campus property would change into a gun free zone.

However, it is also my understanding that with written permission from the school leadership, those who are authorized may carry during church services. If that is correct, who would be "school leadership"? Would a superintendent (or whatever they call them in the private school world) be sufficient? Is there a requirement that there must be a school board and only that board can provide permission?

no the entire north campus would **NOT** be a school. the school does not own the north campus property as such since they rent only the building or portions of the building they rent are considered a school. this is the same as a post office in a strip mall. the post office (the store) is off limits but the parking lot the other stores in the same structure are ok. same with yout example if the school is NOT owned by the church.

 

[worddoer]

no the entire north campus would **NOT** be a school. the school does not own the north campus property as such since they rent only the building or portions of the building they rent are considered a school. this is the same as a post office in a strip mall. the post office (the store) is off limits but the parking lot the other stores in the same structure are OK. same with your example if the school is NOT owned by the church.

The portion that the school would be using is the same portion that our children's ministry uses during the church services. It sounds as if that portion of the building would be off limits, but the rest would be OK? If that is the case, then I would still need permission from the school leadership. Do you have any info on that?

 

[88GT]

Yep, a school is a school 24/7/365.

But school is no longer defined for the purposes of firearms restriction.

 

[88GT]

I have an additional question...

My church has 2 campuses. Our north campus is looking at renting a portion of our building to a small private school. As I understand it, this would mean that our entire north campus property would change into a gun free zone.

However, it is also my understanding that with written permission from the school leadership, those who are authorized may carry during church services. If that is correct, who would be "school leadership"? Would a superintendent (or whatever they call them in the private school world) be sufficient? Is there a requirement that there must be a school board and only that board can provide permission?

IC does not stipulate who has to give permission when the "school" property is privately owned/operated. Frankly, IC no longer requires permission to carry (or it completely prohibits it) on private schools as I read it. But I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of the law.

 

[jedi]

But school is no longer defined for the purposes of firearms restriction.

IC does not stipulate who has to give permission when the "school" property is privately owned/operated. Frankly, IC no longer requires permission to carry (or it completely prohibits it) on private schools as I read it. But I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of the law.

hum... this occured this year with the IC changing??
Can you show us where this occured in IC. I'm curious on this.

 

[Tnichols00]

I remember reading somewhere that you may carry into a private school/church if you have permission from the school/church. Can someone confirm or deny this?

 

[jedi]

I remember reading somewhere that you may carry into a private school/church if you have permission from the school/church. Can someone confirm or deny this?

This is correct for ANY SCHOOL so long as the "school board" gives you written permission.

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who may legally possess a firearm and who has
been authorized by:
(A) a school board (as defined by IC 20-26-9-4); or
(B) the body that administers a charter school established
under IC 20-24; to carry a firearm in or on school property.(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being
operated by the person to transport another person to or from
a school or a school function.
(4) A person who is a school resource officer, as defined in
IC 20-26-18.2-1.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11. Amended by P.L.172-2013,
SEC.12

source:
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch9.pdf

 

[ATM]

^ Definitions to go with the above:

IC 35-31.5-2-285
"School property"
Sec. 285. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).



IC 20-26-9-4
"School board"
Sec. 4. As used in this chapter, "school board" means:
(1) when applicable to a public school of Indiana, the board of school trustees, board of school commissioners, school board of incorporated towns and cities, and township school trustees; or
(2) when applicable to a school other than a public school, a person or agency in active charge and management of the school.

 

[jedi]

^ Definitions to go with the above:

IC 35-31.5-2-285
"School property"
Sec. 285. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).


IC 20-26-9-4
"School board"
Sec. 4. As used in this chapter, "school board" means:
(1) when applicable to a public school of Indiana, the board of school trustees, board of school commissioners, school board of incorporated towns and cities, and township school trustees; or
(2) when applicable to a school other than a public school, a person or agency in active charge and management of the school.

Hum... If I am reading the part in RED correctly then a "school" is more expansive then say a "federal property". By this I mean a post office in a commerical strip mall the **ONLY** part that is considered federal property is the portion of the building that is rented by the post office. (ie. the parking lot shared by all the stores is public space).

However for a 'school' if say the pre-school is in a strip mall then per line in RED the entire parcel of land is a school since the parking lot is a 'common' with everyone else in the strip mall. Is this correct? This does change my post above on who owns the land.

 

[88GT]

hum... this occured this year with the IC changing??
Can you show us where this occured in IC. I'm curious on this.

Repealed last year. I'm mobile now and don't have the ease to copy/paste but I have a post in the other thread of similar topic.

 

[88GT]

This is correct for ANY SCHOOL so long as the "school board" gives you written permission.

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who may legally possess a firearm and who has
been authorized by:
(A) a school board (as defined by IC 20-26-9-4); or
(B) the body that administers a charter school established
under IC 20-24; to carry a firearm in or on school property.(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being
operated by the person to transport another person to or from
a school or a school function.
(4) A person who is a school resource officer, as defined in
IC 20-26-18.2-1.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11. Amended by P.L.172-2013,
SEC.12

source:
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch9.pdf

Yes, but those definitions for those entities apply to public schools only.

 

[eldirector]

Yes, but those definitions for those entities apply to public schools only.

From IC 20-26-9-4

IC 20-26-9-4"School board"
Sec. 4. As used in this chapter, "school board" means:
(1) when applicable to a public school of Indiana, the board of
school trustees, board of schoolcommissioners, school board of
incorporated towns and cities, and township school trustees; or
(2) when applicable to a school other than a public school, a
person or agency in active charge and management of the
school.
As added by P.L.1-2005, SEC.10.