Is collectivism a uniquely leftist idea?

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  • jamil

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    I think that many leftist philosophies involve collectivism, but is not uniquely leftist. Sorry it takes so long to explain why I think that, maybe it's worth the read.

    The traditional one-dimensional line where everything falls on a line from center left, and center right, is a horribly inaccurate representation of the political space. Imagine your TV picture as a straight line and what it would look like if all the information that comprises the image were crammed on that single line. When you cram all the information that makes up the real political spectrum onto a straight line, we get the distorted idea that "leftists" must believe a certain way, "rightists" must behave a certain other way, or they're not true leftists or rightists.

    The reality of politics is a multidimensional space which is difficult to graph. But at least a two-dimensional graph better resolves the space between political views than the line does. You've probably seen the political spectrum graphs where one axis, usually x, is progressive/conservative and the other is totalitarian/libertarian. That still does not properly resolve the space, but at least it can much more accurately place the outliers that seem to defy the left-right paradigm.

    Collectivist vs individualist cannot be mapped to the left-right line. The concept of government has at least some collectivist components. The more government, the more collectivist it is. Complete anarchy would represent the most extreme individualism, while complete government control represents the most extreme collectivism. I'm not saying that totalitarianism and collectivism are the same thing, just that there is a high coherence between them.

    It doesn't matter where you fall on the left/right scale, because you can be very conservative and still favor more government. Just ask G.W. Bush about his "compassionate conservatism" and ask his dad about the "1000 points of light" and his "new world order". Those are all collectivist ideas, but they came from the right. Certainly many leftist ideas do favor collectivism. Communism and socialism are most definitely collectivist. But what about post modernism? Not really right wing, yet it has individualistic components above collectivist.

    So Republicans are traditionally viewed as being the conservatives, the individualists, while the Democrats are traditionally the liberals, the collectivists. But that doesn't explain the outliers, like John McCain, Bush 41 or 43, or Chris Christi because when compressed onto a straight line, they appear to be in the middle. But on the 2-d graph, they're more to the right, and towards totalitarian. The civil rights movement was individualistic in nature, yet it was a "progressive" movement. Collectivists have since essentially stolen it and appended collectivist elements to it, such as positive rights.

    Politics are a complicated enterprise, and we keep trying to pigeon hole each others' political philosophies into manageable constructs like the left/right line. It helps us to separate "us" from "them" and to label "us" and "them". And we find reasons to accept "us" and reject "them". Sometimes that's appropriate. But the Libertarians are the logical extreme of that. They try to so accurately define themselves that they end up alone. But since reality is what it is, and not the one-dimensional line we imagine, we need to form alliances with others who share a closer political proximity to where our point in political space is, to have enough power to make a difference. Some people call that compromise.
     

    rambone

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    Good post. The one-dimensional spectrum of political views is one of the most deceptive and pervasive ideas around.

    2 dimensions is better. I could probably come up with 3-4 dimensions if I wanted to make it really complicated.

    59e473e641ae77725a2c6fc6b40dfad8.jpg
     

    pudly

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    Rambone- What do the personal issues and economic issues axes mean? What does a higher personal issues score represent and likewise for economic?
     

    hornadylnl

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    I disagree that collectivists are an outlier amongst the right. It's natural for people to be pro collective when they see themselves as the beneficiaries and not the guy holding the bag.

    The surest way to draw out the collectivists here is to bring up hunting/fishing/parks/etc or home ownership.
     

    rambone

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    Rambone- What do the personal issues and economic issues axes mean? What does a higher personal issues score represent and likewise for economic?

    The way that chart is labeled, a higher score means more liberty, a lower score means more government control/intervention. There is sometimes a quiz that goes with these charts to see where you fall.
     

    Twangbanger

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    I also believe it's a fallacy, however, to think the economic and "social issues" are equal in stature as enemies to freedom. When I look at Rambone's "diamond diagram," with "personal issues" taking up its own entire axis on the left-hand side of the graph, it makes me wonder. What I hear a lot of Libertarians saying leads me to believe they think high taxes and, for example, religious right extremism are equal threats to liberty. But the reality of our time is that the society moves more in the direction of permissiveness in personal affairs every day. I think that in time, the "correct" view on those issues will prevail, and is in no danger of ultimately failing. The Jerry Falwells of the world have, generally, been put into their place. There is no new tidal wave of Americans being turned over to their way of thinking. The idea of a secular society* is not in danger of failing; it just needs time to fully materialize as people die off.

    Not so, for the economic issues, however. While Americans in their daily lives are, in the aggregate, becoming more tolerant and permissive of other's right to live their lives as they wish, the march on the economic side of the spectrum is towards a totalitarian collective.

    (I realize this discussion is primarily about collectivism, not social vs. economic issues, but I still wanted to mention this since at least one post has touched on the "personal issues" point).


    (*defined not as the absence of religion from society, which I would never support, but rather as the absence of government intrusion in religious matters).
     
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    jamil

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    Horn, you're proving my point. Where do you fit on the left/right line? If leftists are the collectivists, and rightists are the individualists, then you are far right wing and social conservatives are outliers. My whole point is that either liberals or conservatives can be collectivists.

    Whatever graphic means we choose to visualize a person's or group's politics will shape our view of that person. Compressing those views onto a left/center/right line distorts your vision of those people just as much as if you were viewing them on a TV that could only produce a horizontal line. It makes you conclude wrong things about people. You see conservatives as hypocrites, because you estimate their political leanings with an inadequate model. People who try to fit you on a 1D line probably think you're a hypocrite because you fit in one place on some issues, and in another on other issues.

    We live in a 3 dimensional world so 3D visualizations seem to work well. So 3D would probably best model a person's political beliefs. Plot one political continuum against another, for example liberal/conservative vs collectivist/individualist vs magnitude. A 3D scatter plot would probably be best because a data point on a given issue will occupy a different space than another issue depending on the person's valuation of the issue.

    I no longer think you're a hypocrite having read your posts for the last couple of years. Having more data points helps me understand your view better. You're now predictable. So are social conservatives. Plot a their individual beliefs on that 3D scatter plot, and I'd bet that most social conservatives would have very similar patterns. That makes them predictable, and understandable, not hypocrites.
     

    jamil

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    I also believe it's a fallacy, however, to think the economic and "social issues" are equal in stature as enemies to freedom. When I look at Rambone's "diamond diagram," with "personal issues" taking up its own entire axis on the left-hand side of the graph, it makes me wonder. What I hear a lot of Libertarians saying leads me to believe they think high taxes and, for example, religious right extremism are equal threats to liberty. But the reality of our time is that the society moves more in the direction of permissiveness in personal affairs every day. I think that in time, the "correct" view on those issues will prevail, and is in no danger of ultimately failing. The Jerry Falwells of the world have, generally, been put into their place. There is no new tidal wave of Americans being turned over to their way of thinking. The idea of a secular society is not in danger of failing; it just needs time to fully materialize as people die off.

    Not so, for the economic issues, however. While Americans in their daily lives are, in the aggregate, becoming more tolerant and permissive of other's right to live their lives as they wish, the march on the economic side of the spectrum is towards a totalitarian collective.

    (I realize this discussion is primarily about collectivism, not social vs. economic issues, but I still wanted to mention this since at least one post has touched on the "personal issues" point).

    It's a good point. To truly represent a person view, you'd have to devise some multidimensional way to map as many political continua as there are issues. At best we can map what continua we value most against each other. Libertarians need to realize the magnitude scale for social issues, though it's still there, isn't what it once was.
     

    ViperJock

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    Collectivism is not unique to anyone. Conceptually, the difference between tyranny and liberty is free will. If one has the freedom to choose to share their belongings with another through charity or even collectively, Liberty is preserved and I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, getting to a point in our own societal development where all share willingly and equally in both the work and rewards would be the salvation of our civilization.

    However, once you begin to force "wealth redistribution" through taxes or at gun point, this becomes tyranny. Unfortunately, I do not believe that human nature will ever allow a true utopian society. Ergo, all that is left to large scale collectivism is tyrannical methodology. There will always be lazy good for nothing people who think they "deserve" the fruits of those who work harder, longer, or smarter. Eventually, every large scale collective fails for this reason. If the collective is enforced by armies, the failure is more rapid, but the dissolution takes longer.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Interesting discussion. I'd like to propose another 2D chart where the axes are mind your own business and take responsibility for your actions. The more I take responsibility for how my behavior affects me, my family, my neighbor, and people I may never even meet, many of the social issues that the liberals (on a 1D scale) campaign for would largely resolve themselves. I would take care of my own, you'd take care of your own, and where we mutually agreed, we'd take care of those we wished. And if we all just minded our own businesses, we wouldn't care what you did in your own bedrooms, ignore those public manger/Passover/kwanza displays, or be concerned that some bakery won't bake my wedding cake.
     
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    jamil

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    Yep.

    But hornady will be along shortly to point out your hypocrisy. I wait with anticipation to find out what it is. :popcorn:
     

    redlegrod

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    Collectivism in my mind means Coercion. When forced to do something naturally your going to resist. I don't look at things as Right/Left..Liberal/Conservative..Etc. when it comes to politics. In my opinion they are one in the same they both are there to gain more and more control with one pandering to the so called left and the other pandering to the so called right. They actually are both working for the same goal to cull the herd into being thoughtless.
     

    hornadylnl

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    Horn, you're proving my point. Where do you fit on the left/right line? If leftists are the collectivists, and rightists are the individualists, then you are far right wing and social conservatives are outliers. My whole point is that either liberals or conservatives can be collectivists.

    Whatever graphic means we choose to visualize a person's or group's politics will shape our view of that person. Compressing those views onto a left/center/right line distorts your vision of those people just as much as if you were viewing them on a TV that could only produce a horizontal line. It makes you conclude wrong things about people. You see conservatives as hypocrites, because you estimate their political leanings with an inadequate model. People who try to fit you on a 1D line probably think you're a hypocrite because you fit in one place on some issues, and in another on other issues.

    We live in a 3 dimensional world so 3D visualizations seem to work well. So 3D would probably best model a person's political beliefs. Plot one political continuum against another, for example liberal/conservative vs collectivist/individualist vs magnitude. A 3D scatter plot would probably be best because a data point on a given issue will occupy a different space than another issue depending on the person's valuation of the issue.

    I no longer think you're a hypocrite having read your posts for the last couple of years. Having more data points helps me understand your view better. You're now predictable. So are social conservatives. Plot a their individual beliefs on that 3D scatter plot, and I'd bet that most social conservatives would have very similar patterns. That makes them predictable, and understandable, not hypocrites.


    Yep.

    But hornady will be along shortly to point out your hypocrisy. I wait with anticipation to find out what it is. :popcorn:

    Im in agreement with you. The continual liberal/conservative fight here and elsewhere are based on the 2d model. Many card carrying republicans view all of their positions as right and liberals as wrong even though the methods to achieve their goals are no different. Force.

    The 3d model has been discussed here for some time. I probably have the same goal as a Falwell repub in that we want everyone to be Christian. They see government as a means to achieving that end. The government is no part of of my plan to achieve that goal.
     

    hornadylnl

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    The thread I posted asking if the Air Force Band was good use of taxpayer dollars highlights the issue I have with most Republicans, Conservatives, Constiutionalist, etc. The fact that I discuss the issues I have with the above on this forum does not mean that I hate the above any more than I do liberals. There are few liberals here for me to debate these issues with so what's the point?

    DISCLAIMER! When I joined this forum, I was exactly what I've become to loathe. Other posters pointing out the hypocrisy of my posistions has caused me to reevaluate and change many of my postitions. One example is that I used to support a federal constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. I now believe that the only business that government at any level should have in marriage is enforcing whatever legal constructs a couple (or 3 or 4, you get the picture) chooses to draw up for each other.

    Back to the Air Force Band point. Many of us have read and maybe even quoted James Madison as saying “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents" when arguing against government ran charity. Having a harpist on the federal payroll no more fits the role of the federal government given to it by the constitution. But because some like the harpist, they can justify in their own minds why that money needs to be spent and screw the welfare queen. Neither expenditure of federal tax dollars is constittutional. The liberal wants to take money from you by force to buy a poor person's groceries. The conservative wants to take money from you by force to pay the salary of the band because they enjoy listening to them. Two totally different recipients of tax dollars but the method used to get those dollars is the same.

    People at both ends of the traditional 2D spectrum think they're nothing like those on the opposite side. True, their desired goals may be totally different. But politically, their means to achieve their goals are usually one and the same. Use government force to achieve those goals. To me, collectivism, statism, etc are not the goals but the means to achieve the goals. Therefore, they're not limited to one side or the other.
     

    dross

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    Good post. The one-dimensional spectrum of political views is one of the most deceptive and pervasive ideas around.

    2 dimensions is better. I could probably come up with 3-4 dimensions if I wanted to make it really complicated.

    59e473e641ae77725a2c6fc6b40dfad8.jpg

    There are several problems with this model and the test you take to find your position. The problem it has in the context of this discussion is that the libertarian position occupies what should be the anarchy position. Libertarians don't want zero government, libertarians want government to exist only to prevent/punish the initiation of force.

    The other problem with the argument in this thread is that it takes any position that argues for limits on individual rights and calls it collectivism. Collectivism is a philosophy that says individual rights should be subordinate to the good of the many. This is one of the big issues I have with libertarian purists. If someone holds a position one inch more towards the statist direction than another, that person is then labeled a statist. There's a difference between a statist and someone who is slightly less pure in their libertarian thinking.

    Also, according to the way the grid is laid out, it's possible to be further to the statist position than a left liberal and still be a libertarian. I'd like someone to explain that one to me.

    If you really want to see what people think in libertarian terms, find out what they're will to initiate force to achieve. For instance, I know a lady who is a fundamentalist social conservative who thinks gays are going to hell, and premarital sex is wrong, and a whole variety of other things I don't have an issue with. Yet she is a pure libertarian in my view because she doesn't want the government to have a say in any of that.

    Finally, I think for some this is a discussion that's been ongoing here for a long time, which is that some folks who are anarchists want to hijack libertarianism and redefine it to their cause.
     

    hornadylnl

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    There are several problems with this model and the test you take to find your position. The problem it has in the context of this discussion is that the libertarian position occupies what should be the anarchy position. Libertarians don't want zero government, libertarians want government to exist only to prevent/punish the initiation of force.

    The other problem with the argument in this thread is that it takes any position that argues for limits on individual rights and calls it collectivism. Collectivism is a philosophy that says individual rights should be subordinate to the good of the many. This is one of the big issues I have with libertarian purists. If someone holds a position one inch more towards the statist direction than another, that person is then labeled a statist. There's a difference between a statist and someone who is slightly less pure in their libertarian thinking.

    Also, according to the way the grid is laid out, it's possible to be further to the statist position than a left liberal and still be a libertarian. I'd like someone to explain that one to me.

    If you really want to see what people think in libertarian terms, find out what they're will to initiate force to achieve. For instance, I know a lady who is a fundamentalist social conservative who thinks gays are going to hell, and premarital sex is wrong, and a whole variety of other things I don't have an issue with. Yet she is a pure libertarian in my view because she doesn't want the government to have a say in any of that.

    Finally, I think for some this is a discussion that's been ongoing here for a long time, which is that some folks who are anarchists want to hijack libertarianism and redefine it to their cause.

    For myself, I don't label a person as liberal, conservative, libertarian, etc so much on their personal views as I do in what that person believes should be the governments role in enforcing those beliefs.

    I don't think that me personally believing homosexuality is wrong makes me a social conservative. The fact that I believe government has no role in enforcing my personal belief makes me a libertarian. My personal belief doesn't have to betray my political affiliation.
     

    dross

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    For myself, I don't label a person as liberal, conservative, libertarian, etc so much on their personal views as I do in what that person believes should be the governments role in enforcing those beliefs.

    I don't think that me personally believing homosexuality is wrong makes me a social conservative. The fact that I believe government has no role in enforcing my personal belief makes me a libertarian. My personal belief doesn't have to betray my political affiliation.

    Yes, agreed. My point exactly.
     

    Trooper

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    The left-right line is a simplistic view of the political/economic spectrum. Even two axis, as with the chart above, does not fully explain the dynamics of the spectrum. It takes at least three axis to fully describe what positions we have in politics.

    The left/right view came from the French assembly before and during the French revolution. The left was those who represented the poor, the right was the aristocracy. The middle was the merchant class.

    Collectivism came from the French Revolution and the goal of having equality (rather than freedom). It was part of the enlightenment.

    Basically collectivism and progressivism (which came from the Victorian age feminism and the writing of Nietzsche) are leftovers from the Industrial Age. The US is behind the rest of the world and has yet to deal with these ideologies.
     

    ViperJock

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    The left-right line is a simplistic view of the political/economic spectrum. Even two axis, as with the chart above, does not fully explain the dynamics of the spectrum. It takes at least three axis to fully describe what positions we have in politics.

    The left/right view came from the French assembly before and during the French revolution. The left was those who represented the poor, the right was the aristocracy. The middle was the merchant class.

    Collectivism came from the French Revolution and the goal of having equality (rather than freedom). It was part of the enlightenment.

    Basically collectivism and progressivism (which came from the Victorian age feminism and the writing of Nietzsche) are leftovers from the Industrial Age. The US is behind the rest of the world and has yet to deal with these ideologies.

    Collectivism is far older than the frenchies. Primitive societies often practiced it and with greater success.
     
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