IPScore USPSA Iphone / Ipod Touch Scoring Application 3.30.10

[chizzle]

Has anybody tried the Iphone / Ipod Touch application on Saul Kirsch's website:

IPSCore - IPSC / USPSA Practical Shooting Scoring Application for iPhone & iPod

This seems like the future of USPSA scoring. I can imagine a range with Wifi, RO's with Ipod Touches (or Ipads) and entering the data in real time (no more syncing Palm Pilots or paper score sheets).

I would really like to hear the opinion of people who have experience with scoring USPSA matches (Rhino, MSquared) to see what they think. I've talked with Mark about match scoring in the past, and was shocked to hear how much time it takes to score a normal match (3-5 hours!). As an impatient shooter, I'd always love to have the scores right away so that I know how I did, but I completely understand that the scorekeepers have a life, and are unpaid volunteers (thanks guys!).

I see this as an opportunity to make USPSA scoring in Indiana even better; to help us to get quicker scores, and hopefully to take the workload off guys like Rhino and MSquared so that they can just enjoy the match like regular folks . Maybe if we had enough support for something like this, we could throw a fundraiser match to save up the money for the gear?

 

[slow1911s]

There was a ton of feedback on this when it was used at the recent Double Tap championship in Texas. Not everyone was sold was my take (far from it).

I think this is completely where we'll end up. It's just a matter of time, technology, and money (ahh yes, I do have a firm grasp on the obvious).

 

[chizzle]

Double Tap

Dave,
I think that Double Tap actually used a Palm Pilot scoring program, not the product that I'm talking about:

Palm scoring discussion - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo! - Page 2

Since Palm Pilots are a defunct product, I'm was thinking it would be wise to use IPScore since it runs on products that are still in production (Iphones, Ipod touch, etc.).
Sincerely,
Chuck

 

[slow1911s]

Yes, you're right (I was thinking product concept not so much as platform).

 

[msquared]

Looks very interesting! I will have to read up on that. Thanks for throwing that out there!

 

[slow1911s]

The second USPSA match I shot was scored within 20 minutes of the last shot. 25 shooters, too. I'm not going to pretend to know all of the ins and outs of punching the keys of EZWinscore, but I know what I saw.

Since those that score volunteer, or at most shoot for no fee, how long would it take to recover the capital costs at a club that shoots about eight matches a year? How would this work at a very rural range like South Central?

I'm not saying it isn't a good idea. I took my company from a paper syste
to fully electronic/web-based, so my comments are based in similar experience. Just be careful what you wish for, that's all.

 

[msquared]

Before we get in a big debate over time it takes to "score" a match, I want to qualify my estimate I made of 3-5 hours. I was talking about all of it, the entire post match process we have for a match of 50+ shooters. Enter scores, check them (yes i actually do try to catch the entry of someone shooting a 32 round long course in 1.42 seconds), calculate, upload to USPSA, generate combined results to pdf, generate division results to pdf, upload to our website, fill out the match report, fill out the bank deposit and mail it. I didnt count the emails of "oh i shot minor this week or i shot L10 not limited" then recalc, regen pdf and repost. I am not whining (ok maybe a little) but there is more to it than just keying in a few scores and hitting print.

Having said that, I would love to have a method to get scores before we all leave. I would be curious if the match you are referring to had non-shooters doing scoring? After i finish a match all i am thinking of is food and a shower, not keying scores.

I think eventually this will be the way to go. Biggest concern I have heard is the "what if" it dies half way thru a match.

Now that i have gone way off topic. Sometime i need to read up on this software and i am very anxious to hear from anyone who has used it.

 

[chizzle]

Good questions

I'm not sure how it would work, but I'd really like to look into this further. I'm envisioning this one of two ways:

1) Use Iphones or Web enable Ipads

2) Get a mobile hotspot (Sprint is advertising these now for gaming) and use Ipod Touches.

I got a message from Saul Kirsch at Double Alpha letting me know that they have a sample application available on his website (only does 2 shooters for 2 stages) so that people can check it out.

I'd be willing to donate $100 towards checking this out, if one of the scorekeepers is interested. If this meant that we could get results the same day as our matches, I think it would get overwhelming support (both philosophically and monetarily).

 

[chizzle]

Brian Enos Thread

Mark,
I started a thread on Brian Enos too; hopefully we can get some input from Saul Kirsch and from people that have used the application.
Chuck

any app for the iPhone for scoring - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Before we get in a big debate over time it takes to "score" a match, I want to qualify my estimate I made of 3-5 hours. I was talking about all of it, the entire post match process we have for a match of 50+ shooters. Enter scores, check them (yes i actually do try to catch the entry of someone shooting a 32 round long course in 1.42 seconds), calculate, upload to USPSA, generate combined results to pdf, generate division results to pdf, upload to our website, fill out the match report, fill out the bank deposit and mail it. I didnt count the emails of "oh i shot minor this week or i shot L10 not limited" then recalc, regen pdf and repost. I am not whining (ok maybe a little) but there is more to it than just keying in a few scores and hitting print.

Having said that, I would love to have a method to get scores before we all leave. I would be curious if the match you are referring to had non-shooters doing scoring? After i finish a match all i am thinking of is food and a shower, not keying scores.

I think eventually this will be the way to go. Biggest concern I have heard is the "what if" it dies half way thru a match.

Now that i have gone way off topic. Sometime i need to read up on this software and i am very anxious to hear from anyone who has used it.

 

[msquared]

i just watched the tutorials over lunch. Looks great except it does not appear that it exports to the winscore software for upload to USPSA. A couple people mentioned that in their reviews. Perhaps they will add that functionality soon?

 

[Coach]

One thing to consider is that even if this hardware works well it will require people who know how to use it. That means for a club match you need five technology savy people to input. One for each squad and a knuckle head who can learn and do the score keepers score. You guys have been to matches this is a bit of a challenge.

 

[chizzle]

Not quite there yet...

Mark,
I think you nailed it. The things that I was thinking about were:
1) Can you load a shooter database onto multiple devices (I don't think so)
2) Does it export to WinScore (nope)
It sounds like the application isn't quite where it needs to be yet; I can't wait until they add these features so that it's a more viable option to replace paper score sheets.
Chuck

i just watched the tutorials over lunch. Looks great except it does not appear that it exports to the winscore software for upload to USPSA. A couple people mentioned that in their reviews. Perhaps they will add that functionality soon?

 

[msquared]

Another thought on this is how many matches have you been in where there was a change from the prepared score sheet? Quite a few in my few years of experience. It would require no tolerance from plan to setup. There is no way to pencil in a variance, (NPM comes to mind) this isnt impossible to overcome but something to think about. I still think any of these would require paper backup as well. Face it gizmos crap out sometimes.

And coach i hear you on the educated scoring people. We have difficulty getting people to fill out the paper properly. At least on paper the person re-keying can catch and try to decipher it. No chance for that on these.

Before someone lights me up for being a technology basher, I sincerely hope this all continues to develop and become common practice in the near future.

 

[chizzle]

Thanks for the feedback!

Mark,
Thanks for taking this discussion in the light that it was intended. I really appreciate all the work that you and the other scorekeepers do for USPSA matches; there is no way that we could have our matches without volunteers like you.
I'm anxious to implement this type of scoring in Indiana because I think that it could really simplify and speed up the scoring process. As a shooter, I love the immediate feedback of the bigger matches (often times same day scoring), but I realize that it's not necessarily practical for local matches. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the existing technology is quite where it needs to be yet (due to the reasons we mentioned), but it's tantalizingly close to what we need.
Sincerely,
Chuck

Another thought on this is how many matches have you been in where there was a change from the prepared score sheet? Quite a few in my few years of experience. It would require no tolerance from plan to setup. There is no way to pencil in a variance, (NPM comes to mind) this isnt impossible to overcome but something to think about. I still think any of these would require paper backup as well. Face it gizmos crap out sometimes.

And coach i hear you on the educated scoring people. We have difficulty getting people to fill out the paper properly. At least on paper the person re-keying can catch and try to decipher it. No chance for that on these.

Before someone lights me up for being a technology basher, I sincerely hope this all continues to develop and become common practice in the near future.

 

[Coach]

I am not against it happening either, but I was at Area 5 and saw the palm pilot thing and it sucked. The scores were still slower than they should have been on paper because the CRO on stage completely dropped the ball.

Running a match I have no idea who is going to show up on a given Sunday who can RO. Around here we are blessed and it usually works itself out. Now with a new tecnology gizmo I need RO's and score guys.

I love having scores the same day as much if not more than the next guy, but this solution will have bugs that will need worked out as well. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts and new wonder devices that solve problems.

 

[rvb]

There is no way to pencil in a variance,

yup, this is why the palms suck. Wanna add an hour to the match and cause massive backups? ... just add a shooter on a squad, or get 2 shooters out of order.

And for a major match, the shooter absolutely needs a paper copy to arbitrate scores with.

If I had the capital, I'd make the system. I've often wondered why CED or PACT hasn't done it yet. All you need is a small hand-held widget with a built in receipt printer (picture something meter readers use). Squad walks up, enter shooter # (maybe even a barcode reader), enter the stage #, and when scoring is done hit print... then sync up at the end of the day (or periodically) for instant scores. You could even build the timer into the widget (and why not, PACT has a chrono/timer in one).

Current systems try to do too much by handling the squadding and shooter order, and it gets ugly fast. All it needs to do it keep track of shooter #, scores, and stages. A simple database. You could even build in pre-set "modes" for an assigned stage RO vs ROs embedded in the squad to make it brain-dead easy.

Make it EASY and people will use it.

-rvb

 

[chizzle]

Message from Saul

Guys,
I got a reply from Saul Kirsch at Double Alpha, it is shown below:

"The application is designed primarily to be used in situations where
club members want to run a few stages together, or a shooter wants to
keep track of the score of several, or dozens of shooters in a match. It
is not really designed to be used to score a match - as the iphone data
cannot be synched one to another...

We may come out with an updated version later in the year which can do
that, but for now, it cannot.

It has not been submitted to USPSA for approval"

I think that the technology isn't where we need it to be yet, but it looks like they're moving in the right direction.
Sincerely,
Chuck

 

[slow1911s]

Guys,
I got a reply from Saul Kirsch at Double Alpha, it is shown below:

"The application is designed primarily to be used in situations where
club members want to run a few stages together, or a shooter wants to
keep track of the score of several, or dozens of shooters in a match. It
is not really designed to be used to score a match - as the iphone data
cannot be synched one to another...

My read there is that it's intended purpose is to track how a super squad is doing, on the fly, at a major match. It's a task usually kept by a significant other of one of the members of the super squad (e.g. Jerry Barnhart's wife did this all of the time when he shot majors).

 

[HICKMAN]

I think if USPSA was smart, they create a web based program for entering in data.

They could assign a match to a director, then the director could create accounts for his RO's. They would then only need web-enabled devices (ipod, drone, blackberry) and the RO could upload the time and scores on the fly, no need to save the info to their phone or device, the results would be uploaded and calculated on the fly.

Competitors would be able to see live scoring and such as they progress through the stages. With all the tech savy college kids that shoot these days, I'm surprised they haven't done something like this already.

But, I see that USPSA is working on the cheap, using PHP and Apache on a Linux box.