Intersting problem with 45 ACP reloads...

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  • mshogren

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    So, my buddy calls me and tells me that some of my reloaded 45 ACP rounds did something weird.

    First of all, here is what the reloads are:
    - mixed brass, all large primer
    - Winchester primers
    - 4.8 grains of bullseye
    - Standard brand LSWC, 200 grain bullets
    - Overall length of 1.250 if I recall correctly
    - loaded on a single stage press 50 rounds at a time with a separate powder measure

    Here is what happened. My buddy and his brother were out shooting his brother's new 1911 earlier this week when the temp was in the single digits. Everything seemed to function fine.. Gun cycled and fed normally with no abnormalities noticed. My buddy was picking up the brass after and he found what appeared to be bullets that they just shot just feet from where they were shooting. The bullets look normal except there are rifling marks on them to indicate they have been shot. Otherwise, they are not deformed like they hit anything.

    So how in the heck is this possible? If I shorted the powder, you would think that gun would not cycle properly. But it cycled fine.

    The only thing I can think of is related to the Standard bullets. The lube on them was bery brittle and in some cases broke and fell out of the lube groove in the bullets before being loaded into the cases. I did not think it would be a problem so I just used them. Now thinking about this scenario, could the lack of lube allow the gases to get past the bullet such that the bullet still get expelled, but at a much lower velocity??? Not sure if this even sounds reasonable.

    Has anyone else seen anything like this? Clearly this does not sound like a squibb load since the gun cycled and fed and fired everytime.

    Thanks for any input...

    Mark
     

    mshogren

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    And that is a good question...it was a woodpile. His brother had just got the gun and wanted to test it out so they did not set up a "real" target. I had thought the same thing since I have found spent bullets on my range that look almost like new except with rifling...just that they were well down range.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    First question of several is what was their target/backstop?

    I think that question drives at the heart of it. I'd also suggest bounce back. I can't imagine a semi-auto cycling from a load with only enough oomph to clear the barrel and tumble out, nor can I imagine the shooter not instantly noticing the different feel of that round.
     

    Grelber

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    When developing my first loads, 230 Barry's, bullseye, suggested minimum starting powder charge from one of my reloading manuals, shot from Springfield 1911. I noticed about the same thing.
    In my case I just needed more Powder, in your case it seems like you may be getting some blow by
     

    mshogren

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    I was not sure if blow by would explain it or not having never seen or heard of anything quite like this.

    Fortunately, i have used up all of my Standard bullets and am now using Missouri bullets which seem much better. I will see if this happens again.

    I wonder if the extreme cold could have played a role if that is really the case.

    I still also think that bounce back could be a possibility as well...

    Mark
     

    mshogren

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    If I don't see a hole in my target, I'll unload and examine everything. 45 holes are easy to see in paper, I don't shoot at woodpiles either.

    I agree, i don't shoot at woodpiles either...But I do occasionally shoot at noon traditional targets, and I would still know if the round hit where I was aiming or not. Having heard enough about squibb rounds, I don't want to have a nice pistol go boom on me.

    Mark
     

    Grelber

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    My bounce back was while shooting a bowling pin. One of my manuals says a too hard alloy can fail to deform and seal against the barrel , for what it is worth.
     

    mshogren

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    If I recall correctly, I think the Standard bullets I used has a hardness of 19 which I think is a little high for what I am pushing for power. I am now using 12 with Missouri bullets.

    It still sounds like bounce back could be a good possibility...

    Mark
     

    1775usmarine

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    I think that question drives at the heart of it. I'd also suggest bounce back. I can't imagine a semi-auto cycling from a load with only enough oomph to clear the barrel and tumble out, nor can I imagine the shooter not instantly noticing the different feel of that round.

    I had this happen on my first reload of 9mm. I was shooting out of a Beretta 92F and all was good till the last round. It landed maybe 6ft in front of me, but I knew something wasn't right as it felt too soft. It still locked the slide back, but went back to the drawing board and increased the powder and have had no issues since knock on wood.
     

    mssmith44

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    I have seen the same sort of odd occurrence with 45 ACP and a different powder combination. Could it be some debris in the case that prevents a good ignition.
    In the case that I witnessed there was powder in the barrel from non ignition, the bullet made it out but the slide didn't cycle.
    Your load of bullseye is plenty if it ignites.
    I have had some in 38 special with bullseye that were definitely a fizz type load(in cold weather)
    I think any of those situations would have been apparent to the shooters.
    They sound a lot different.
     
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    Sniper 79

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    I shot a few thousand Standards in a 45. I also found them at my feet on the concrete pad where I was shooting from. I know for sure they bounced back.

    Those bullets are really hard and I shot up what I had and am done with them. What a mess!
    On to plated variety. Much cleaner and softer.
     

    mshogren

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    I agree, no more Standard bullets for me either. The Missouri bullets I am using now foul the barrel much less. Since they are softer, they seal better so less lead gets melted by the hot gas.

    Mark
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Would not bounce back be noticeable on the surface of the bullet, after hitting a wood pile????????????????????????????

    Depending on the hardness, likely less that you'd think. Hitting steel will warp them, but wood has some give. The bullet could penetrate 1/2" or so and slough off energy, and then bounce back. I've seen some hard cast .44's bounce and they looked good enough to reload. A micrometer may show otherwise, but to the naked eye they looked unfired.
     

    bwframe

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    I think I'd hold off on sharing reloads with others? With this issue or no apparent issues there is still a liability concern, right?
     

    Sniper 79

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    The bullets that bounced back looked perfect except the rifling marks. They overall were accurate and performed well except left my gun and dies a mess and the hardness scared me. I was reluctant to shoot steel with them and had to give extra attention to what I was shooting at.

    I went to plated now and they are fantastic. Clean loading and shooting and nice and soft. They just frag out when hitting steel or other hard objects. Worth the extra cost for sure.

    I also shot the standards out of a .357 mag loaded with a fast powder. They shot very accurate although left a ton of lead on the cyl face. I bet the fast powder melted the lead bad and blew it out the sides. Barrel was clean. They may be ok pushed like a laser cast with mag powder. I gave up there too and am only going to load actual jacketed rounds now.
     
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