Interesting little court case I came across....

[Randall Flagg]

Economic collapse: Interesting little court case i ran across....


Also in the constitution it gave the states the power to "only accept gold and silver as payment of debts", what amendment or law changed that to allow the states to accept fiat money as payment?

 

[CarmelHP]

Economic collapse: Interesting little court case i ran across....

http://garrettsurvives.blogspot.com/2010/08/interesting-little-court-case-i-ran.html

Complete nonsense.

Also in the constitution it gave the states the power to "only except gold and silver as payment of debts", what admendment or law changed that to allow the states to accept fiat money as payment?

And where exactly does it say that?

 

[downzero]

Hilarious.

 

[Randall Flagg]

[/url]

Complete nonsense.



And where exactly does it say that?

Article I | LII / Legal Information Institute
Section 10.

No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

interesting link on the case, but do you believe that banks up money out of thin air, or that the case was nonsense itself?

 

[dross]

interesting link on the case, but do you believe that banks up money out of thin air, or that the case was nonsense itself?

They don't make it up out of thin air, as in the money they loaned didn't exist somewhere else. It's a system of IOUs, based on money that currently exists somewhere.

 

[CarmelHP]

Section 10.

No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

It says "state," right? What exactly does that have to do with "only accept gold and silver as payment of debts." The federal government is given free reign to make whatever it likes legal tender, the prohibition is only upon the states and doesn't say anything about what tender states may accept.

 

[Bill of Rights]

It says "state," right? What exactly does that have to do with "only accept gold and silver as payment of debts." The federal government is given free reign to make whatever it likes legal tender, the prohibition is only upon the states and doesn't say anything about what tender states may accept.

Clarify, please, Carmel? If "no state may make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts", does that not preclude FRNs after 1971, when Nixon removed the Gold Standard?

Also, while Article I, Sec. 8, Clause 5 does grant Congress the power to coin money, is there another section or clause I've forgotten that expressly grants them the power to print currency (or to delegate that being done?)

Thanks in advance for the reply.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Randall Flagg]

It says "state," right? What exactly does that have to do with "only accept gold and silver as payment of debts." The federal government is given free reign to make whatever it likes legal tender, the prohibition is only upon the states and doesn't say anything about what tender states may accept.

Where in the constitution does it give the federal government the right to make nike tennis shoes legal tender if they want?

And again if the prohibition is only on the states, how come they take frn now, and what amendment changed that to allow the states to take other then gold or silver?

They don't make it up out of thin air, as in the money they loaned didn't exist somewhere else. It's a system of IOUs, based on money that currently exists somewhere.

Sorry but you are mistaken sir, loans are one of the ways we CREATE money(i.e. google money creation).

Graham Towers, Governor of the Bank of Canada from 1935 to 1955, acknowledged:

Banks create money. That is what they are for. . . . The manufacturing process to make money consists of making an entry in a book. That is all. . . . Each and every time a Bank makes a loan . . . new Bank credit is created -- brand new money.7​

Robert B. Anderson, Secretary of the Treasury under Eisenhower, said in an interview reported in the August 31, 1959 issue of U.S. News and World Report:

[W]hen a bank makes a loan, it simply adds to the borrower's deposit account in the bank by the amount of the loan. The money is not taken from anyone else's deposit; it was not previously paid in to the bank by anyone. It's new money, created by the bank for the use of the borrower.​

If you need futher proof, look up the fed book "modern money mechanics".
​

 

[CarmelHP]

Clarify, please, Carmel? If "no state may make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts", does that not preclude FRNs after 1971, when Nixon removed the Gold Standard?

Also, while Article I, Sec. 8, Clause 5 does grant Congress the power to coin money, is there another section or clause I've forgotten that expressly grants them the power to print currency (or to delegate that being done?)

Thanks in advance for the reply.

Blessings,
Bill

"Coin money" doesn't say diddly about what they have to make it out of, paper, gold, green cheese, anything, it's an unrestricted delegation of power. The only prohibition is on the states which were issuing worthless currency during the Confederation period and demanding, by law, that they be accepted for payment of debts. The federal government is unrestricted in that regard.

 

[CarmelHP]

Where in the constitution does it give the federal government the right to make nike tennis shoes legal tender if they want?

"5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

See any prohibition of what the federal government can coin as money and regulate the value of?

And again if the prohibition is only on the states, how come they take frn now, and what amendment changed that to allow the states to take other then gold or silver?
[/quote]

"If" the prohibition is only on the states. "If?" It says, "No State shall." What don't you understand about the choice of words? After "no state shall" is a list of things states can't do, but which were specifically delegated to the federal legislative power in the rest of Article 1. It also doesn't say a whit about what a state may accept. It says that states may not designate anything as legal tender, except for gold and coin. The states have made nothing legal tender, the federal government has designated FRNs as legal tender for all debts, public and private.

 

[Bill of Rights]

"Coin money" doesn't say diddly about what they have to make it out of, paper, gold, green cheese, anything, it's an unrestricted delegation of power. The only prohibition is on the states which were issuing worthless currency during the Confederation period and demanding, by law, that they be accepted for payment of debts. The federal government is unrestricted in that regard.

Mmm... Not sure on that one. To "coin" money is a pretty specific term to use, and it's often said that the Framers didn't use any word lightly or by accident in the writing of the Constitution. I've heard it said (forget where) that they knew the danger of paper money leading to the present-day so-called "fiat" currency, which is why they were so specific. Further, the prohibiting of the states issuing Confederate currency didn't apply to them at the time, did it? They had seceded and formed a new country, including their own Constitution, among other things, so would USA law have applied in the CSA?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[dross]

They had seceded and formed a new country, including their own Constitution, among other things, so would USA law have applied in the CSA?

Blessings,
Bill

According to the U.S., the CSA wasn't a new country.

 

[CarmelHP]

Further, the prohibiting of the states issuing Confederate currency didn't apply to them at the time, did it? They had seceded and formed a new country, including their own Constitution, among other things, so would USA law have applied in the CSA?

Blessings,
Bill

Articles of Confederation, Bill. Not the Confederate States.

 

[dross]

Sorry but you are mistaken sir, loans are one of the ways we CREATE money(i.e. google money creation).


[/indent]

Well short review and I learned something. Your statement is one of fact, but you are stating a theory. Apparently there are competing theories as to whether money is created through commercial bank lending.

I'm not interested enough nor do I have the time to become versed in this enough to argue either way. I will say that my original understanding was clearly incomplete.

 

[Randall Flagg]

"5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

See any prohibition of what the federal government can coin as money and regulate the value of?

And again if the prohibition is only on the states, how come they take frn now, and what amendment changed that to allow the states to take other then gold or silver?

"If" the prohibition is only on the states. "If?" It says, "No State shall." What don't you understand about the choice of words? After "no state shall" is a list of things states can't do, but which were specifically delegated to the federal legislative power in the rest of Article 1. It also doesn't say a whit about what a state may accept. It says that states may not designate anything as legal tender, except for gold and coin. The states have made nothing legal tender, the federal government has designated FRNs as legal tender for all debts, public and private.[/quote]


I see your not to well known on the history of money at that time.

the devil is in the details.

do you know why the federal government was supposed to "coin" money instead of "print" money?

Did they not know money could be printed? or did they know and they wanted to keep away from printing money?

ever hear of the Continental?

lets read how printing money worked out for them before the constitution was written and why the word "coin" was in the constitution instead of print...

Economic collapse: Hyperinflation History: The Continental

You realize "fix the Standard of Weights and Measures" has nothing to do with paper currency at all correct?

It also doesn't say a whit about what a state may accept. It says that states may not designate anything as legal tender, except for gold and coin. The states have made nothing legal tender, the federal government has designated FRNs as legal tender for all debts, public and private

It seems you have mis read it sir, any powers not given to the feds are passed down to the states. THEREFORE if in the constitution it states that the states can not make anything but gold and silver as payment for debts, and no where else in the constitution does it give the feds power to make whatever they want payment for debts, then silver/gold is the only choice.

It also states the states shall not "emit bills of credit" and "pass any bill of attainder"


Look up those terms, and then point me in the direction of an amendment that allows states to do this today.

you see brother, it takes an amendment to change the constitution, so if the constitution says states can only accept silver/gold, it dont really matter what the fed wants to do, until there is a amendment allowing states to take something OTHER THAN silver/gold, then the constitution still stands as it was written.

unless you know of an amendment that allows states to take used jock straps(if thats what the feds made legal tender) for debts.

please provide source's, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Randall Flagg]

The only prohibition is on the states which were issuing worthless currency during the Confederation period and demanding, by law, that they be accepted for payment of debts. The federal government is unrestricted in that regard.

they learned that from the federal government, read my link in my last post.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Where's Fletch when you need him?

The word designate does not mean accept. The states are prohibited from minting money. That right was reserved to the Federal government. If it's hard to understand that, maybe you shouldn't.

 

[dross]

There may be some traction under the phrase "to Coin money." I can see the meaning both ways. Could be literal, could be figurative.

So point numer 1: Congress can coin money, which Carmel argues is figurative, and BOR and RF are arguing is literal.

The reasoning about the section prohibiting certain state powers to me has no traction. That section was clearly to prevent states from creating their own money.

The main disagreement here is the meaning of "coin money."

 

[Randall Flagg]

Mmm... Not sure on that one. To "coin" money is a pretty specific term to use, and it's often said that the Framers didn't use any word lightly or by accident in the writing of the Constitution. I've heard it said (forget where) that they knew the danger of paper money leading to the present-day so-called "fiat" currency, which is why they were so specific. Further, the prohibiting of the states issuing Confederate currency didn't apply to them at the time, did it? They had seceded and formed a new country, including their own Constitution, among other things, so would USA law have applied in the CSA?

Blessings,
Bill

you are correct sir, they did know the dangers as " a wagon load of money wont even buy a wagon load of provisions"

also to further prove the point, the coinage act of 1792

Coinage Act of 1792 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Funny how all of our money back then was........COINS.

 

[CarmelHP]

Can you read what they wrote in the Constitution, and what I wrote in response to you, without adding your own words that the Framers didn't put in (doesn't say anything about "accept" or "except" or anything like it)?