Hows this work

[spirit390]

Looking thru my new Shot Gun News I found a company call Sherluk Marketing out of Ohio that is selling AR and M-16 parts. My question is didn't the atf make possessing any of the trigger parts/sear like possessing an unregistered machine gun? If so how can this company sell this stuff? I have no intention of buying any of it but it struck me funny. You would always see M-16 bolts but the fire controls you seldom if ever see. Or maybe I just missed them. Thanks for the bandwidth and awesome site. If I posted this in the wrong section please move it. Thanks Wes

 

[Slab]

welcome to INGO.
Im SURE you go to jail if you put the parts in a "non machinegun" I would go out and guess that the parts are for someone who has one and needs replacements.

 

[sixshooter]

How do you find out what the gun law restrictions on parts are?

I saw that, too, and was curious.

 

[ATM]

The nature of your question probably makes this a good candidate for the Class III forum. Hopefully a mod will move it there.


ETA:Sherluk Marketing & Trading - Military Surplus Specializing in U.S. military gun parts & accessories.

Their website is under construction but it may be that they deal primarily with military and law enforcement with limited items available to general public.

 

[Clay]

I was told at one point that is is not illegal to posses trigger groups for full auto weapons. Could be true, could be false, Im not sure and would love some clarification.

FYI: If you go to sites like Gunbroker, you can buy full auto trigger parts pretty cheap. I know AK stuff is on there all the time.

IMO part of the key as to why you can have these with out issue is because in my experience you cant just throw these parts into a non-machine gun and make it a machine gun. The receivers have to be machined for these parts to be installed, so there is no danger of installing them and having instant machine gun fun.

 

[shooter521]

it may be that they deal primarily with military and law enforcement with limited items available to general public.

Nope; Sherluk is a generic AR parts house like Model 1 or M&A. They often have a table at the Indy 1500.

IMO part of the key as to why you can have these with out issue is because in my experience you cant just throw these parts into a non-machine gun and make it a machine gun. The receivers have to be machined for these parts to be installed, so there is no danger of installing them and having instant machine gun fun.

M-16 fire control parts are perfectly legal to sell, and perfectly legal for owners of registered M-16s or full-auto AR conversions to buy. That said, part of the federal definition of "machine gun" includes a
combination of parts for assembling a machine gun, or a part or set
of parts for converting a gun into a machine gun.

While any ONE part may not get you into trouble (several AR manufacturers use M-16 bolt carriers in their semi-auto rifles), I would certainly NOT advise possessing a full set of M-16 conversion parts (fire control group, bolt carrier, selector) in conjunction with a semi-auto AR. BATF can and has "jury rigged" guns and even parts kits into "machine guns" in order to "prove" their cases. Remember, it only has to function for two shots.

Further, there's really no legitimate reason for using M-16 parts (except maybe the -16 bolt carrier, and even that is subject to debate) in a semi-auto AR, so why even take the chance?

 

[JosephR]

That "combination" of parts you mention is referring to a combination that actually produces fully automatic fire. If the rifle does not fire full auto, it is not a machine gun and those parts are not considered machineguns.

You are reverse engineering that statement to mean that a combination of parts commonly used to make a machinegun creates a machinegun even when they are not all there, as if a "few" of them will make your rifle considered a machinegun.

 

[shooter521]

You are reverse engineering that statement to mean that a combination of parts commonly used to make a machinegun creates a machinegun even when they are not all there, as if a "few" of them will make your rifle considered a machinegun.

I specifically advised against was possessing a complete set of M-16 conversion parts in conjunction with a semi-auto AR. BATF has advised against this, as well:
______________________________

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, DC 20226

MAR 25 1999

Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter in which you asked about possession of
spare M-16 machinegun parts by a person who possesses a registered
M-16 and a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle.

Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without
manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the
definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the National
Firearms Act (NFA). An AR-15 rifle, which is assembled with
certain M-16 machinegun fire control components, and which is
capable of shooting automatically is a machinegun as defined.

The definition of machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any
combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if
such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
Thus, an AR-15 rifle possessed with separate M-16 machinegun
components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle
shoots automatically when the components are installed.

The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm
does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered
firearms. A person who possesses a registered M-16 machinegun and
a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle and a separate quantity of M-16
machinegun components could be in possession of two machineguns.

- 2 -

Mr.

We would advise any person who possesses an AR-15 rifle not to
possess M-16 fire control component. (emphasis mine) If a person possessed only the M-16 machinegun and spare M-16 fire control components for that machinegun, the person would possess only one machinegun.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.
If you have further questions concerning this matter, please
contact us.

Sincerely yours,


Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
_________________________

Now I realize there's a lot of "may, might, could" language in there, but couple the BATF's recommendation (in bold above) with their past practice of manipulating their "tests" to achieve their desired outcome (making certain MAC uppers fire on their own, etc), and one might tend to err on the side of caution.

 

[4sarge]

I specifically advised against was possessing a complete set of M-16 conversion parts in conjunction with a semi-auto AR. BATF has advised against this, as well:
______________________________

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, DC 20226

MAR 25 1999

Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter in which you asked about possession of
spare M-16 machinegun parts by a person who possesses a registered
M-16 and a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle.

Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without
manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the
definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the National
Firearms Act (NFA). An AR-15 rifle, which is assembled with
certain M-16 machinegun fire control components, and which is
capable of shooting automatically is a machinegun as defined.

The definition of machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any
combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if
such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
Thus, an AR-15 rifle possessed with separate M-16 machinegun
components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle
shoots automatically when the components are installed.

The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm
does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered
firearms. A person who possesses a registered M-16 machinegun and
a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle and a separate quantity of M-16
machinegun components could be in possession of two machineguns.

- 2 -

Mr.

We would advise any person who possesses an AR-15 rifle not to
possess M-16 fire control component. (emphasis mine) If a person possessed only the M-16 machinegun and spare M-16 fire control components for that machinegun, the person would possess only one machinegun.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.
If you have further questions concerning this matter, please
contact us.

Sincerely yours,


Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
_________________________

Now I realize there's a lot of "may, might, could" language in there, but couple the BATF's recommendation (in bold above) with their past practice of manipulating their "tests" to achieve their desired outcome (making certain MAC uppers fire on their own, etc), and one might tend to err on the side of caution.

Better Safe than Sorry (or arrested) - Great Response

 

[JosephR]

You do know that these letters apply ONLY to the one who wrote the inquiry, don't you?

Where do you get the information that a rifle only has to fire two rounds to be considered a machinegun by the ATF? You DO know that a semi FCG without it's disco spring or upside down disco spring will double, right? And that is NOT considered a machinegun.

I do believe in erring on the side of caution but your post was full of a lot of guessing and regurgitation of internet lore...

 

[JosephR]

But to answer the original question, yes you can buy those. You have no reason to buy them so I would advise against it. Many places will ask to see a returned form or proof that you have a legit use for these parts.

 

[VUPDblue]

You do know that these letters apply ONLY to the one who wrote the inquiry, don't you?

Where do you get the information that a rifle only has to fire two rounds to be considered a machinegun by the ATF? You DO know that a semi FCG without it's disco spring or upside down disco spring will double, right? And that is NOT considered a machinegun.

I do believe in erring on the side of caution but your post was full of a lot of guessing and regurgitation of internet lore...

In the very definition of a machinegun! "...more than one round with a single pull of the trigger..."

 

[JosephR]

In the very definition of a machinegun! "...more than one round with a single pull of the trigger..."

Very good! But they also consider a malfunctioning rifle a malfunctioning rifle.

Would you call a quadriplegic a paraplegic just because they meet the definition and have two paralyzed legs? No, you wouldn't. You have to look at EVERYTHING and see if they fall under another category that better suits them.

I don't mean to sound non-PC but it was the first thing that popped into my head.

 

[VUPDblue]

Tell all that do David Olofson.

30 months in jail for broken gun

 

[JosephR]

His gun was not broken. He modified it AND put several parts in it that shouldn't be in it. He then lent it out to some idiot to go f*cking around with at a local range.

I'm just as ready as you are to stand behind any honest citizen who gets railroaded but that guy did so many things wrong I can't excuse his lack of intelligence.

I'm pretty confident that if my disco spring goes out and my rifle doubles before I put it away for the day (and yes, it has an M16 carrier group) I will not face any hassles with the ATF.

However if I find the doubling to be fun and exciting and continue to "play" for the rest of the day and cause trouble and act like an ass, I would expect trouble back. That's the nice thing about discretion.

Hell that DID happen to me once before. After the first time, I checked to make sure the parts were installed correctly (couldnt' see the spring was missing) and tried again. Same problem. I didn't want to waste ammo so I quit.

Being smart about situations like that can save your butt. My life is still intact after that incident with my malfunctioning rifle.

 

[VUPDblue]

Well obviously we are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[shooter521]

You do know that these letters apply ONLY to the one who wrote the inquiry, don't you?

OK, I'll grant you that. But the same interpretation can be found on pages 14-15 of the BATF's NFA Handbook:

The definition of machinegun also includes a combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. An example of a firearm meeting this section of the definition is a semiautomatic AR15 rifle possessed with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector. If the semiautomatic AR15 is assembled with the described M16 parts and the rifle is capable of fully automatic fire, the weapon possessed in conjunction with the M16 parts, whether assembled or not, is a machinegun as defined.

You DO know that a semi FCG without it's disco spring or upside down disco spring will double, right? And that is NOT considered a machinegun.

Maybe not, but an AR-15 with an M-16 hammer/trigger/disconnector in it that could be made to double just might be. Given that BATF does not have any written procedures or standards for testing firearms, do you really want to assume they're going to act reasonably when doing so?

 

[JosephR]

Yeah I was just about to come back and say that we shouldn't let this get out of hand and turn into a pissing match!

So what do you feel I said incorrectly? I hope you feel safe enough to shoot at the local range without fear of a malfunctioning rifle. I'm sure you are a stand up guy and have a good head on your shoulders. Like me, after a malfunction and then perhaps a subsequent test, if it still malfunctions it's going to be put away for the day.

You and I are not the types who will have a problem with the ATF.

I understand your point about trying to encourage new guys to stay as safe as possible. Anyone who does not have a RR or machine gun should not even thing about buying a FA FCG. There's only one reason for that, whether it be to use now or to use when the SHTF and that's not a valid reason...

 

[VUPDblue]

What I say on a public forum, and how I feel about the reality of interaction with BATFE may or may not be identical. I feel it is wise to steer a person who knows nothing about the NFA world in a knowledgable and safe direction. I'd be glad to engage you further on this, but it would have to be via email or PM. I suspect, however, that our viewpoints are not too askew on this matter.

 

[JosephR]

OK, I'll grant you that. But the same interpretation can be found on pages 14-15 of the BATF's NFA Handbook:

The definition of machinegun also includes a combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. An example of a firearm meeting this section of the definition is a semiautomatic AR15 rifle possessed with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector. If the semiautomatic AR15 is assembled with the described M16 parts and the rifle is capable of fully automatic fire, the weapon possessed in conjunction with the M16 parts, whether assembled or not, is a machinegun as defined.

Yes and you need all of the parts. Having a FCG or just the carrier group does not constitute "combination of parts from which a machinegun..."

That "combination of parts" literally means "that RIGHT combination of pars" i.e. M16 carrier AND FCG. You cannot pick and chose from that definition.

I've been through this countless numbers of times on other forums after watching other go through the same thing scores of times.

Here's all I have to say:

Do NOT worry about your M16 carrier group that you paid a pretty penny for because it had a properly staked key and an MP tested bolt. You will be fine using it

and

Do NOT even think about buying a FA FCG. That's pure intent, either for now or for later. That WILL get the ATF up your rectum.