How Much Land Do You Need To Feed Your Family SHTF?

[Amishman44]

I'm surprised the Amish would want to interact with the English to that extent, to rent from them. Or shares, or whatever. Are they desperate for more land?
It would be a wonderful experience to really learn their ways of sustainability in a possible partnership like that. The downside is it might take a lifetime.

Dad's farm, the would still farm it with horses, but it would triple the amount of acreage that they currently have and give a more efficient return on the investment...with minimal cost for fuel, maintenance, etc.
I think a lot of people would be surprised when they find out just how modern or 'english' many of the Amish are nowadays!
Here's an amish joke from a few years ago...
Q: Who does an an amish man call on his cell phone?
A: All his amish friends, who also have cell phones!
When I need to contact dad's neighbor James's son, Aaron, for any work projects (help with a re-roof, etc.), I either hit him up via text or use facebook messenger, whichever is more convenient. He also flies out to their sheep ranch in South Dakota twice a year!
While it's true they cannot have electricity in their homes, most now have electricity run to their barn(s) where they can charge the batteries for their power tools, power the computer to operate their business and manage their website, etc. and many have transformed a portion of their barn into the best all-in-one 'man-cave' (great room, office, kitchen area, etc.) for watching football on the large flat screen, etc. They might still have to run to the outhouse during commercials, but it sure is nice-n-warm when they get back inside!
While the amish I know don't tend to do a lot with handguns (pretty much revolvers only and few at that) many are definitely into long guns, and high-powered rifles at that! Their idea of a thousand-yard-stare is one eye closed the other looking through a long, round, glass-filled, cylinder with cross-hairs in it!

 

[Leo]

And the ability to defend/protect what you have.

South Africa is an example of that.

Long established, productive family farms that sustained for generations were destroyed and the hard working farmers were savagely killed at almost every location. The same character defect that allows people to be non productive, lets them murder and steal at will to satisfy any need or want that they have.

 

[ditcherman]

South Africa is an example of that.

Long established, productive family farms that sustained for generations were destroyed and the hard working farmers were savagely killed at almost every location. The same character defect that allows people to be non productive, lets them murder and steal at will to satisfy any need or want that they have.

I don't see the people coming out to me in a SHTF scenario as the hardened survivalists though. I have really no hope that they'll even make it out this far, they are so soft. Kind of flip flopped from what I see in Africa, where the last ones left to defend their stuff had lived a cush life, and the "savage killers" were the hardened ones. I'm definitely making some assumptions on that one though. In other words, our non productive people are too fat and in need of caffeine to make their savagery effective.

 

[Ingomike]

I don't see the people coming out to me in a SHTF scenario as the hardened survivalists though. I have really no hope that they'll even make it out this far, they are so soft. Kind of flip flopped from what I see in Africa, where the last ones left to defend their stuff had lived a cush life, and the "savage killers" were the hardened ones. I'm definitely making some assumptions on that one though. In other words, our non productive people are too fat and in need of caffeine to make their savagery effective.

They will find you when it gets bad enough and desperation sets in. There will also be a huge market for those that can raid the country for goods to take back into the city. Plan for roving gangs, likely on motorcycles to raid out farther and farther.

 

[COOPADUP]

One would also consider a non flood prone root cellar. I faintly remember as a kid my grandparents place that had a stone and beam cellar. All the canned goodies were kept there even though they had refrigeration and a small basement. Haven’t thought about that in a long time.

 

[Leadeye]

For me the Katrina disaster tells you what you want to know. It was a microcosm of a large scale disaster and many in the cities either sat where they were or went where the corrupt government told them.

I figure I live far enough out to not have many issues, but propane/diesel/gasoline is something I should store more of. Without those, things would be a lot tougher.

I've got plenty of land, but working it by hand isn't something I would like to do at my age.

 

[armalitesheepdog]

99% of us are disillusioned thinking we can survive a total collapse with land guns people water ect..unless you are in Alaska the crap will find you. Think about it. Do you want to live in a world where everything and most everyone you care about are gone. I dont mean to be a buzz kill but in Indiana..there ain't nowhere to hide. Montana maybe Idaho Maybe. Indiana..nope

 

[foszoe]

Another topic here is if it really is SHTF, millions are starving, you got it all, the perfect homestead, how many will it take to defend your 20-25 acres?

If I am in an HOA, it should all go swimmingly

 

[BehindBlueI's]

They will find you when it gets bad enough and desperation sets in. There will also be a huge market for those that can raid the country for goods to take back into the city. Plan for roving gangs, likely on motorcycles to raid out farther and farther.

So, should I start building my flaming guitar now?

Make your own Mad Max flamethrower ukulele

No need to move to a violent, post-apocalyptic desert wasteland to rock out like a warrior. Learn how to make a flamethrower ukulele that would impress even the likes of Doof.

www.cnet.com

No way I'm weeding a garden if I can be a part of a post-apocalyptic raider band instead.

 

[maxwelhse]

So, should I start building my flaming guitar now?

Make your own Mad Max flamethrower ukulele

No need to move to a violent, post-apocalyptic desert wasteland to rock out like a warrior. Learn how to make a flamethrower ukulele that would impress even the likes of Doof.

www.cnet.com

No way I'm weeding a garden if I can be a part of a post-apocalyptic raider band instead.

I never pictured you as a blonde..?

 

[ditcherman]

If I am in an HOA, it should all go swimmingly

Ingomike HAS! to like that post. State Law.

 

[Leadeye]

I've always wondered how many would move from the land surrounding cities and towns into the cities and towns because that's where the leadership says they will get fed. Do they go back out to the country if that doesn't work out?

 

[manifest destiny]

I wonder how any people have the land space but not the skill and practice to grow at a level appropriate. Meaning, sure, I have 400 acre (I don't) but I've never grown anything besides tomatoes and jalapenos.

 

[Leadeye]

There are plenty of places in Indiana where you can't really grow anything but trees. I know, I live there.

 

[foszoe]

There are plenty of places in Indiana where you can't really grow anything but trees. I know, I live there.

if helps if you clear the trees.

 

[JeepHammer]

It takes a lot of work to have a sustainable homestead....
Best to have animals, a large enough body of water for fish, possibly irrigation. Garden, extra cropland to rotate your crops thru...don't forget Hayfields........
Another issue is the amount of seed....

I've been heading that way since about '97 and it's MUCH more work than I ever imagined from Mother Earth, etc.

Disabled military, didn't know anything but farming & military, so went back to farming.
Planting, weed/pest control, harvest wasn't enough education, when I was a teen I didn't pay attention to fertilizers etc. just did the manual labor as instructed...
HUGE gap in my education there, and I didn't know what I didn't know.

I bought 46 acres to begin with, and it got real small REAL quick!
Plenty of ground for garden beds, but since it's just 'Dirt' and not growing soil, it didn't produce very well...

Took me about two years just to get the basics growing since I wasn't using synthetic chemicals,
Then came pest control, the birds, bugs & critters beat me to my prized produce...
Birds virtually wiped out my first two strawberry crops and bugs got my beans.

I found that raised garden beds have a lot of advantages, up and away from general ground crawlers, allow for posts in the corners so you can net out flying bugs & birds.
Posts also let me using guttering that got strawberries up off the dirt, increased useable space.
Nets were, and mostly still are surplus parachutes.
Kept storms from pounding gardens down also.
Nets also keep beneficial bugs (pest control) inside with producing plants.

I'm disabled, so sitting on the ledge around the bed made it MUCH easier to tend the gardens,
Raised beds also keep your hard earned growing soil where it belongs, covered in winter to keep rain/snow from washing out your fertilizers.
You only get ONE back, take care of it!
Life sucks when you no longer have it...

Livestock are a completely different matter.
Small critters (chickens, rabbits) are one thing, it's mostly protecting them from varmints since they can be kept under cover/indoors (barns/sheds).

Large livestock have to be cared for 24/7/365 no matter what the weather/social climate/politics.

Rotate fields, cut for hay (winter feed) and move the livestock...
Sounds easy? Not so much.
Rotating pastures means a LOT of fence, gates, etc.
Hay cutting/bailing equipment is expensive and/or labor intensive,
Plus hay/forage has to be kept out of the weather, that means sheds/buildings.

And then there is care of the pastures.
Weed seeds blown in make plants the livestock won't eat or are damaging/deadly to livestock.
These have to be manually found, removed and definitively killed.
If your neighbor doesn't do his part, it's a real battle finding & destroying these invasive, damaging plants.

Let's not forget disease & predators...

Now, say you manage to get a really good crop, where do you store it?
The market gets glutted about common harvest time and the prices drop...
The very first, the very best, and the preserved into the off season pay the most.
That usually means cold storage of some kind, and small scale cold storage is expensive...

As an example,
My first projects were garden beds, both produce and decorative.
The land had to produce, pay for itself!

Took me about 3 years to get a good compost pile going so the dirt could become growing soil,
And it took me about that long to figure out how to deal with pests and other problems.

Then I got good crops, but since they were open garden grown, they matured at the same time as everyone elses, the price dropped like crazy in the competition.

That's when my first structural build happened,
A green house/hot beds to get things started earlier,
A 'Root Cellar' (cold storage) to preserve longer into the off season.

One fairly large 'Wet' storage (root cellar, keeps humidity up) and twice that in cold (dry) storage,
AND a shop/barn for equipment, feed, etc.
This is well before I could even think about building a home...

And let's not forget water wells, power generation, plumbing for water, power grid lines, etc.

AND,
Everyone goes on & on about guns & ammo...
How about those canning jars, lids, rings, food preparation equipment, grain grinders, dehydrators, canning pressure vessels (retorts), energy source for canning/preserving, etc?

-----------

'Sustainable' isn't easy, I'm still at it and only about 80%-90% there...

No matter how long you leave guns & ammo in the pressure cooker, you still can't stick a fork in the gravy!

It takes 400 YARDS of yarn to make ONE pair of socks...
You still have to grow the base material (sheep for wool, cotton for fibers),
Clean and comb that material,
Spin that material into yarn BEFORE you can start on that pair of socks...

And just for the record,
My 130 year old manual sock knitting machines..

My 70 to 120 year old sewing machines,



This is my truckload of SPARE solar panels so we don't have to carry water, hand filter water, manually operate common equipment & tools,
AND it powers my pressure retorts for home canning on a fairly large scale, runs fridges & freezers, etc.



I'm NOT the last word authority in sustainable living, actually far from it.

What I am is 80%-90% sustainable...
And I ran a welding/machine shop, off grid, until January 2020 when I sold the business & retired from operation.
I still own the building and power grid that supplies it...

If I can do it, starting in a wheel chair, then anyone with an average I.Q. that's capable of learning different disciplines can do it...
Most people are too lazy to be bothered with working all day, every day, and refuse to learn anything new...

 

[Magyars]

I've been heading that way since about '97 and it's MUCH more work than I ever imagined from Mother Earth, etc.

Disabled military, didn't know anything but farming & military, so went back to farming.
Planting, weed/pest control, harvest wasn't enough education, when I was a teen I didn't pay attention to fertilizers etc. just did the manual labor as instructed...
HUGE gap in my education there, and I didn't know what I didn't know.

I bought 46 acres to begin with, and it got real small REAL quick!
Plenty of ground for garden beds, but since it's just 'Dirt' and not growing soil, it didn't produce very well...

Took me about two years just to get the basics growing since I wasn't using synthetic chemicals,
Then came pest control, the birds, bugs & critters beat me to my prized produce...
Birds virtually wiped out my first two strawberry crops and bugs got my beans.

I found that raised garden beds have a lot of advantages, up and away from general ground crawlers, allow for posts in the corners so you can net out flying bugs & birds.
Posts also let me using guttering that got strawberries up off the dirt, increased useable space.
Nets were, and mostly still are surplus parachutes.
Kept storms from pounding gardens down also.
Nets also keep beneficial bugs (pest control) inside with producing plants.

I'm disabled, so sitting on the ledge around the bed made it MUCH easier to tend the gardens,
Raised beds also keep your hard earned growing soil where it belongs, covered in winter to keep rain/snow from washing out your fertilizers.
You only get ONE back, take care of it!
Life sucks when you no longer have it...

Livestock are a completely different matter.
Small critters (chickens, rabbits) are one thing, it's mostly protecting them from varmints since they can be kept under cover/indoors (barns/sheds).

Large livestock have to be cared for 24/7/365 no matter what the weather/social climate/politics.

Rotate fields, cut for hay (winter feed) and move the livestock...
Sounds easy? Not so much.
Rotating pastures means a LOT of fence, gates, etc.
Hay cutting/bailing equipment is expensive and/or labor intensive,
Plus hay/forage has to be kept out of the weather, that means sheds/buildings.

And then there is care of the pastures.
Weed seeds blown in make plants the livestock won't eat or are damaging/deadly to livestock.
These have to be manually found, removed and definitively killed.
If your neighbor doesn't do his part, it's a real battle finding & destroying these invasive, damaging plants.

Let's not forget disease & predators...

Now, say you manage to get a really good crop, where do you store it?
The market gets glutted about common harvest time and the prices drop...
The very first, the very best, and the preserved into the off season pay the most.
That usually means cold storage of some kind, and small scale cold storage is expensive...

As an example,
My first projects were garden beds, both produce and decorative.
The land had to produce, pay for itself!

Took me about 3 years to get a good compost pile going so the dirt could become growing soil,
And it took me about that long to figure out how to deal with pests and other problems.

Then I got good crops, but since they were open garden grown, they matured at the same time as everyone elses, the price dropped like crazy in the competition.

That's when my first structural build happened,
A green house/hot beds to get things started earlier,
A 'Root Cellar' (cold storage) to preserve longer into the off season.

One fairly large 'Wet' storage (root cellar, keeps humidity up) and twice that in cold (dry) storage,
AND a shop/barn for equipment, feed, etc.
This is well before I could even think about building a home...

And let's not forget water wells, power generation, plumbing for water, power grid lines, etc.

AND,
Everyone goes on & on about guns & ammo...
How about those canning jars, lids, rings, food preparation equipment, grain grinders, dehydrators, canning pressure vessels (retorts), energy source for canning/preserving, etc?

-----------

'Sustainable' isn't easy, I'm still at it and only about 80%-90% there...

No matter how long you leave guns & ammo in the pressure cooker, you still can't stick a fork in the gravy!

It takes 400 YARDS of yarn to make ONE pair of socks...
You still have to grow the base material (sheep for wool, cotton for fibers),
Clean and comb that material,
Spin that material into yarn BEFORE you can start on that pair of socks...

And just for the record,
My 130 year old manual sock knitting machines.. View attachment 155200 View attachment 155201

My 70 to 120 year old sewing machines,

View attachment 155202

This is my truckload of SPARE solar panels so we don't have to carry water, hand filter water, manually operate common equipment & tools,
AND it powers my pressure retorts for home canning on a fairly large scale, runs fridges & freezers, etc.

View attachment 155204

I'm NOT the last word authority in sustainable living, actually far from it.

What I am is 80%-90% sustainable...
And I ran a welding/machine shop, off grid, until January 2020 when I sold the business & retired from operation.
I still own the building and power grid that supplies it...

If I can do it, starting in a wheel chair, then anyone with an average I.Q. that's capable of learning different disciplines can do it...
Most people are too lazy to be bothered with working all day, every day, and refuse to learn anything new...

Impressive! You should be proud of all that you have accomplished.

 

[JeepHammer]

AND...
As I'm former military that actually saw what happens when countries collapse, the entire place was built with an eye to security.

Private drive is 9/10 mile long, and I'm the last drive on a seldom used county road.
A river covers about 3/4 of my land, I can see to the county road (now), and pretty much everything is covered by motion detecting security cameras.

The bridge that crosses a creek bed is built to collapse, stick an end up in the way of incoming vehicles.
Didn't intend it to do that, but it was a happy accident when it realized what it could do.
You would need a serious 4x4 to get across the creek around the bridge in summer, I'm not sure anything around would make it through during wet season.

The 800 yard gun range is to keep skills sharp, and just like to target shoot, so do my friends.

The 6 acre lake/beach is an attraction to friends, pads in place for trailers, some yard barn type 'cabins' are already there.
It's called a MAG (Mutual Aid Group)...
But it's also a bunch of beach fun, fishing fun, volleyball fun, 4 wheeler fun, etc. if nothing goes wrong...

As for defense,
Brass sorting/qualifying machine, around 3,300 hour,



Brass qualifier on left, center is lower case roller to restore to SAAMI specification,
Right is primer removal, top end sizing, trimmer & final inspection.
This machine can also load at about 1,000 hour if needed.



Notice the DC to AC power inverter, blue box is the battery box...
This makes it portable, it can work anywhere.


Electromagnetic induction heat treating lets me anneal to 100% factory reconstitution of the brass, at a rate of about 3,000 hour.
I had to build that machine myself, there isn't a consumer version made...



If push comes to shove, I can make cases & bullets/jackets from mostly scratch.
It's called a scroll press, and with new dies it makes dandy rimfire case & bullet jackets...





I love gears & wires, they make sense to me, so sewing machines, sock knitting machines, spinners & weaving looms, canning/preserving equipment, solar power, well pumps etc are a lot of fun for me...

It's people I don't understand.
Why someone thinks a firearm is going to feed them in a time of crisis,
When everyone else with a firearm is doing exactly the same thing,
Is going to work out for them is beyond me.
(Mechanical & Electrical, not a Psychiatrist)

 

[bwframe]

I wonder how any people have the land space but not the skill and practice to grow at a level appropriate. Meaning, sure, I have 400 acre (I don't) but I've never grown anything besides tomatoes and jalapenos.

Light bulb moment, eh?

It's the same thought as owning a fishing rod, does not make you a fisherman. Owning guns, does not make you hunter or a gunfighter. And that your military stint, may not necessarily give you any understanding of self defense or gun handling.

Growing, catching and hunting food are lifetime ventures that a lot of us will never consider complete. Forget about the other side of SHTF, which is staying alive while doing everything?

A well rounded approach to training, education, hobbies and health, with a bend towards survival/self defense, might just be more important than land ownership?

 

[JeepHammer]

Impressive! You should be proud of all that you have accomplished.

It's been a challenge!

Had to fork over my own money to get my back fixed, the VA wouldn't do it...
Got my legs back about 60%.

Always knew where I wanted the home, so worked out from there,
The shop got erected where it was handy, not where it would be 'Ideal'.
(Good plan today is better than a 'Perfect' plan that never happens)

Disabled, so I traded my motorcycle for a '73 Jeep CJ-5, used it as a tractor for the first 2-3 years.
They came with a draw bar for implements, so I put it to the test!

Bought the land without power or water,
The rural water wouldn't even talk to me since my line would have to cross someone else's land,
The power company wanted $15,000 up front, then wanted to charge me $118,000 over the next 30 years,
So first generators and oil lamps, finally solar electricity.

I made a CRAP LOAD of mistakes!
Battery powered tools, and 90s batteries aren't what we have today, so always dead.
Then small gas engine tools that you were lucky to get one season out of...

Turns out, I went back to battery power,
Soldered cords into the tools, used a vehicle battery to power them.
Works OK, and you can pick up almost new tools from yard sales & flea markets with dead batteries for almost nothing.
I still have them in the golf cart we use around the homestead, and have them in my off road Jeeps.

Scrounged solar panels from anywhere I could find them, but I ran into a bankruptcy sale of a commercial installer in Jan 2020, got a truck load of inverters & a truck load of panels for about 3¢ on the dollar, so I've updated my system with new, much higher efficiency stuff and still have a lot left over.
Actually producing more than we can use/store and have to scrub it off now...
That's a VERY good feeling not having to watch the charge meters or fire up generators!

When I bought the next plot of land attached to mine, got a second deep water well no one knew was there,
So two deep rock filtered wells, the lake, and a river if push comes to shove...
Hauling water was the single most back breaking, never ending job I've ever had to do...

Just throwing that in there for anyone wanting sustainability, but thinking about buying yet another 'Toy' or firearm.
Water pump (pumps or pump & rebuild kits) and solar to power it directly takes all that burden off your back,
And trust me, it's the heaviest burden you will carry.

I didn't ignore rain water, I have cisterns that store rain water, and I recover gray water for gardens.
Without water there is no life.

There were shipping containers on the property when I got it, so I used them as concrete forms, dug a hole, put in drainage/pile foundations under them and coated them in concrete, covered them over in dirt.
Maintains temps without energy supply, one is wet (natural floor) to maintain humidity,
Two are dry, cool storage (for canned goods & such).

With a little piping it's easy to use the earth to drop outside air temp, and when needed we can draw that cool air into the home, cuts WAY down on energy bills.
Pipes (tiles) were the way things were cooled before refrigeration, and it still works contrary to popular belief.

The house has at least 5 feet of dirt on top,
Not a basement house, earth sheltered.
Never gets freezing, never gets more than about 75°F on the hottest days,
And we can turn on just fans to draw cooler air from underground storage.

Passive solar, earth sheltered, concrete.
Bug proof, tornado proof, mostly fire proof, flood proof, it will be here long after I'm gone...

I can't sell it as a home game, people WAY too lazy to look at the long term,
But I live in tornado alley, and termites/carpenter ants have ruined more homes than I can count...
I just added fire & flood proof without really knowing it by adding drains under the home (lowers water table) and drains in the floors, water can't stand in the floors, it drains away.
Concrete doesn't burn, I used fire proof insulation, and the cabinets are metal with wood veneer (I'm a metal worker, easier to build metal cabinets in a home that doesn't have straight/square walls).
Square corners don't get along with concrete construction, every square edge is a crack waiting to happen.

No carpets, all tile or polished concrete, that means rugs you can actually wash and get clean (not just make mud and push it under the carpet).

Natural light gets in, the front is 15 feet at the peak of glass (low E coated for passive solar efficiency) and we have polished 'Light Pipes' in back rooms like utility/mechanical room & bathrooms.
No power usage when the sun is up.

It's as energy efficient as I could learn about & plan for,
Last bad winter, we burned $186 worth of extra propane to heat, but I wasn't home much to feed the corn/wood pellet furnace, that would have reduced the bill to nearly zero.

That will reduce now since I have MUCH more efficient solar panels and new batteries, we can use a lot more renewable energy for heating instead of buying propane.

We get the undersized corn from our lease land other farmers plant.
They get docked for undersized kernels, so they screen them out before going to market.
We use them to feed livestock, burn them in the furnace, etc.
Just don't use POPCORN!

I didn't plant decorative shrubs/trees.
We have berry briars, fruit trees, nut trees, etc.
They bloom nice, and they give us food/source of income...

Briar patches also throw one more obstacle down to any prowlers...

It's all in how you want to do things and think it through.
I spent a crap ton of time just watching where the sun came up/set in the different seasons, where the water ran off in hard rains, etc before I tried to build anything...
Not like I had the money to build back then, I mostly lived in a tent & crapped in the weeds...

Then I figured out if you want to attract a woman, you need flush toilets, running water & lights that don't require a match!
'Combat Field' life isn't for everybody, and certainly not for most women!

The big myth is what worked 100 years to 10,000 years ago no longer works...
Gravity still pulls down, water still flows down hill, substrate ground is still warmer/cooler than surface ground, rocks/cement still make a good, solid construction material, smoking a drying, canning food still preserve it, etc.

I mix 21st century with 18th/19th century for something that works.
I use 20th century electromagnetic induction to heat 19th century canners, and a 21st century digital data logger for time/temp numbers.
This allows me to NOT overcook the food, but still know exactly when the food reaches the desired sterilization temp.
We get better food that way, and there is no question it's dead safe.

Electromagnetic induction (heating) lets me control the energy delivered to the canner, better quality control that way, and no fuel burned, all 100% renewable energy without a chain saw, wood splitter, or buying propane.

I do my metal heat treating (brass annealing, etc) with induction, makes for 100% factory quality reconstitution when reloading, and I can heat treat exotic metals you couldn't otherwise reach/control proper temperature with gas heating.
No carbon introduction from a gas flame either...

Is a science thing, plus a LOT of hard work!