High end rifle. AR or AK?

[Kirk Freeman]

Leo, you are aware that (early-ish) Weatherby rifles were made on FN Mauser actions, combat rifle roots?

I need not discuss the military roots/applications of Purdy, Winchester and Sauer, yes?

 

[Leo]

Kirk, I kind of see what you re saying you are right about military contracting over the years,

I don't think Mauser started exclusively as a military arm company, but surely became a big player. Mauser's add copy talks of 140 year history of fine hunting rifles.

Many companies made Mauser designs when a contract was available. For example Carl Gustav produced Swedish Mausers were very fine quality keeping with the companies premium civilian reputation. I have never seen a military double rifle, and have no ability to say it did not happen, but Purdy made sporting guns for Dukes and Earls and Lords. . No doubt some Winchester rifles were adapted to the military uses, but that is not what the Custers soldiers had. The famous model 73 won the west, but I am not aware of any government issue of that rifle.

I also do not know much about Sauer, but they are beautiful. Their premium hunting rifle is a single shot that is named after the patron Saint of hunters. I know that Beretta made Carcanos like what is alleged to have shot Kennedy, but I see no resemblance to a 682 Gold O/U.

We do know the history of the Kalashnikov and the Armalite designs, and they were patently designed for combat use, no matter who made them. It is cool that we can have them.

I just really appreciate the fine rifles that are in a completely different category. I know that it is different times. I have been in many gun shops in a few different states, and the premium guns of the past are setting in dust in the back of the shelves and the combat guns are front and center, and selling.

 

[kawtech87]

None of you have said LMT, and I am sad.

To be fair knutty did earlier. See

Gucci AR? KAC or LMT MWS. Accept no substitute.

I'd actually forgotten about LMT. The sea of AR assemblers is so deep these days it hard to remember the ones that are actually manufacturers. I remember when the announcement was made of the Kiwis adopting the NZ-16 as their service rifles and drooling over the pics of the monolithic quad rail upper and full ambi lower, which at the time was ground breaking but now seems almost boring. Ambi lowers are pretty ubiquitous now. The upper and gas system is still very unique and I still love the look of the MARS-L rifles. They have sort of a retro modern look to them that I can't explain almost exactly the reason I became obsessed with HK USPs. The MARS-L and especially the NZ-16 look like something straight out of an early 90s anime and I being a bit if a weeb LOVE IT!

Which is why when I found NZ-16 clones available I ordered one immediately. What LMT calls the New Zealand reference rifle. Waiting for it to show at my LGS hopefully this week. Thanks everyone for your suggestions! I'll have to re-learn how to post pics on the new format but as soon as I get the rifle and figure it out I'll post some up.
Thanks!

 

[kawtech87]

Please don't take this wrong in any way.

Having seen the truly high quality rifles, like Weatherby rifles that were custom built by Roy Weatherby himself, or fine double rifles made by James Purdy & Sons. Even the "F" grade Winchester products with wood that you could think worthy of an altar in heaven. I have seen Fabbri shotguns that took $250,000 down payment. Some of the old school Sauer high end rifles were fantastic workmanship and detail.

It is hard for me to think of bent sheet metal or cast aluminum and plastic combat rifles as "high end". I really do understand that they can be made to shoot accurately and perform well but they cannot hide their combat rifle roots.

Yeah, I can't afford that level of high end. High end in ARs in my mind means reliability, durability and accuracy. Fit and finish on an AR is never going to be on par with a hand made custom built rifle made by a master craftsman. But it can be done well. To be honest the super fancy polished wood and deep blued steel only makes me nervous. It's beautiful but I'm not taking a 250,000 dollar shotgun hunting, or even out of the safe or even to my house because to me it would be useless. I can use a high end AR, I can use a mossy 590 or rem 870 and not care about it getting beat up to much because it's made to take it. If I scratched $250k+ shotgun I think I'd die of a heart attack.

 

[Leo]

If I scratched $250k+ shotgun I think I'd die of a heart attack.

I do understand that. I have never played out with my finest guitar for the same reason. But it sure is pretty.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We can all agree that LMT should be mentioned all by themselves.

 

[Ggreen]

Just get both arsenal and the geissele

 

[DadSmith]

Just get both arsenal and the geissele

Buy them while you can. Don't forget quality magazines.

 

[Ggreen]

Buy them while you can. Don't forget quality magazines.

My arsenal feeds magpul and circle 10 great. Magpul are cheap enough to have in bulk to make up for the polymer tabs

 

[DadSmith]

My arsenal feeds magpul and circle 10 great. Magpul are cheap enough to have in bulk to make up for the polymer tabs

PMAG® 30 AK/AKM GEN M3®

30-round GEN M3 reliability for your AK

magpul.com

If you buy these they have steel inserts like the old Russian polymer mags. Cost more but worth it.

 

[kawtech87]

I found out today that the local FFL I'm having the transfer done through Martinsville Guns, is closing for good. They said they'd let me do this last one but it will likely be the last one they do. Sad times. They had become my local go to for transfers recently being it's so hard to get to USDS from Martinsville anymore.

 

[BoilerWes]

No one has mentioned JP Precision. I’ve owned several higher end ARs and JP has been the cream of the crop for me.

 

[eric001]

OK, so this one has run long enough I don't think I'll be guilty of derailing the thread too badly. Lots of good posts in this one with regards to good/very good AR/AK platforms, and I'd kind of like to know how you guys think the Tavor SAR compares to these rifles? I have fired a few different AR's and liked 'em... then fired a Tavor and fell in love. So my opinion is going to be very biased. I'm curious what the consensus here is though? How "high end" does it compare favorably to??

Apologies to the KT87 for sidetracking! And in that line of thought, have you ever considered the Tavor, KT? I know not everyone likes or even tolerates bullpups though.

 

[kawtech87]

OK, so this one has run long enough I don't think I'll be guilty of derailing the thread too badly. Lots of good posts in this one with regards to good/very good AR/AK platforms, and I'd kind of like to know how you guys think the Tavor SAR compares to these rifles? I have fired a few different AR's and liked 'em... then fired a Tavor and fell in love. So my opinion is going to be very biased. I'm curious what the consensus here is though? How "high end" does it compare favorably to??

Apologies to the KT87 for sidetracking! And in that line of thought, have you ever considered the Tavor, KT? I know not everyone likes or even tolerates bullpups though.

You're good. Yeah I've considered the Tavor, and held one awhile back. It didn't really fit me if that makes sense. I get the bullpup concept but don't care for it in execution. That could change with range time and training but I already know the AR and AK and don't want to muddy those waters learning a new rifle.

 

[Ggreen]

OK, so this one has run long enough I don't think I'll be guilty of derailing the thread too badly. Lots of good posts in this one with regards to good/very good AR/AK platforms, and I'd kind of like to know how you guys think the Tavor SAR compares to these rifles? I have fired a few different AR's and liked 'em... then fired a Tavor and fell in love. So my opinion is going to be very biased. I'm curious what the consensus here is though? How "high end" does it compare favorably to??

Apologies to the KT87 for sidetracking! And in that line of thought, have you ever considered the Tavor, KT? I know not everyone likes or even tolerates bullpups though.

If you want a taco order a taco. Comparatively ar and ak are better platforms, but if you want a taco the best hamburger in town won't replace that cheap jack in the box taco that you really wanted.

 

[DadSmith]

To be fair knutty did earlier. See

I'd actually forgotten about LMT. The sea of AR assemblers is so deep these days it hard to remember the ones that are actually manufacturers. I remember when the announcement was made of the Kiwis adopting the NZ-16 as their service rifles and drooling over the pics of the monolithic quad rail upper and full ambi lower, which at the time was ground breaking but now seems almost boring. Ambi lowers are pretty ubiquitous now. The upper and gas system is still very unique and I still love the look of the MARS-L rifles. They have sort of a retro modern look to them that I can't explain almost exactly the reason I became obsessed with HK USPs. The MARS-L and especially the NZ-16 look like something straight out of an early 90s anime and I being a bit if a weeb LOVE IT!

Which is why when I found NZ-16 clones available I ordered one immediately. What LMT calls the New Zealand reference rifle. Waiting for it to show at my LGS hopefully this week. Thanks everyone for your suggestions! I'll have to re-learn how to post pics on the new format but as soon as I get the rifle and figure it out I'll post some up.
Thanks!

Can't wait for pictures and range reports.

 

[kawtech87]

If you want a taco order a taco. Comparatively ar and ak are better platforms, but if you want a taco the best hamburger in town won't replace that cheap jack in the box taco that you really wanted.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Tavor is "cheap". By all accounts it's a great rifle. But it's also a 2-3 moa rifle with good ammo on a bench, where the LMT I purchased is capable of moa and even sub moa groups using decent ammo according to reviews I've seen. Customization is a factor, after market parts are a factor, different manual of arms is a factor. There's just to much the AR has over the Tavor for me to consider one other than just to have one. Not to mention the AR is America's rifle. The Tavor may be great if we lived in Israel but we don't.

 

[Ggreen]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Tavor is "cheap". By all accounts it's a great rifle. But it's also a 2-3 moa rifle with good ammo on a bench, where the LMT I purchased is capable of moa and even sub moa groups using decent ammo according to reviews I've seen. Customization is a factor, after market parts are a factor, different manual of arms is a factor. There's just to much the AR has over the Tavor for me to consider one other than just to have one. Not to mention the AR is America's rifle. The Tavor may be great if we lived in Israel but we don't.

Even Israelis prefer a the stoner rifles multiple articles on the topic. I also didn't mean the analogy to be able price, but more about the best most expensive burger won't make you as happy as a cheap taco if you reallywanted a taco in the first place. If you wanted a bull pup an AR isn't going to make you happy even if you got a kac.

 

[kawtech87]

Got the call that my LMT is in at my LGS. The call came at 2:23pm. How's that for timing?

 

[BigRed3588]

I own and enjoy many of both. I will never buy a new Arsenal again, the price is not worth it. I would look at the Galil ACE for a high end 7.62x39 rifle.

Gucci AR? KAC or LMT MWS. Accept no substitute.

I love my LMT but have heard some unflattering things about KAC. My girlfriends father used to work for them as a machinist and basically said quality control was a recurring issue because they were more concerned with profit margin than quality (e.g. laying off their more experienced people and hiring novices at half the salary). He’s also shared info on some shady business practices, but I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if those practices were at the government’s behest.