Saw a video on a SA TRP. When manual safety is deactivated, pulling the hammer all the way to the rear the hammer physically contacts and deactivates the grip safety and the pistol will fire if the trigger is pulled. Tried it on my SA TRP and Sig Sauer 1911 Equinox and noted same. Surprised by this. Anybody that can contribute to my knowledge of 1911 will be appreciated!
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Hammer can deactivate 1911 grip safety
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wizardfitz
Expert
That’s why I sold my 1911s and kept my Glock’s, I’m to stupid to worry.
In order to do this you have to keep holding the hammer all the way back to keep the grip safety disengaged and then somehow pull the trigger at the same time. I don't really see an issue and have never even come close to being in a scenario where this became an issue with any 1911s that I own. Much ado about nothing IMO. I mean in real life what's the chances of a discharge unless you are doing this intentionally?
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Why would you work so hard to defeat a safety. Why.
I have never seen a need to **** with any pistol in this manneee but know I will look at this when the sun comes up and yeah be safe with your G&$:k OK…
I see no malfunction described here. The 1911 is designed to fire when the manual safety is off, the grip safety is depressed and the trigger pulled. It does not matter how the grip safety is depressed. Depressing it with the hammer is still depressing it.
That is why we discuss these things; to get a different perspective. Now that I look at it further, any pressure from above will defeat the safety. I always thought in terms of the grip safety only being deactivated by pressure from gripping the gun. Now my question is what good is a grip safety if it can be so easily deactivated. I think that I have read that the original design did not include a grip safety and that was added at the insistence of the military? Guess I am going to have to educate myself more on grip safeties! Interesting that Springfield Armory has a grip safety on the XDS and now Smith and Wesson has one on the new Shield EZ.
Wilson Combat EDC X9 Model Handguns
Wilson Combat has developed a new 5 inch barrel EDC X9 long slide version for defensive & recreational shooters that prefer a longer sight radius.
www.wilsoncombat.com
This doesn't have a grip safety. I wonder if you can modify the 1911 45acp or 10mm without the grip safety?
Is the grip safety really needed?
If i remove the seat cutoff switch on my mower because I hate when it kills the engine when I move my butt to the side...
and I get my foot clipped off... who's fault it that?
If it didn't have all those fancy safeties I wouldn't of had to go an remove it in the first place I reckon.
Design problems for sure!
I'd say some manufacturers are getting sloppy setting up their 1911's.
I pulled 4 Dan Wessons out and the hammer either didn't touch the grip safety or didn't move it enough to allow the trigger to release the hammer.
However, my Ruger SR1911 hit and moved the grip safety well past the point of release.
Moral of the story...keep your finger off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard until you are ready to fire it. Basic safety stuff FTW.
I pulled 4 Dan Wessons out and the hammer either didn't touch the grip safety or didn't move it enough to allow the trigger to release the hammer.
However, my Ruger SR1911 hit and moved the grip safety well past the point of release.
Moral of the story...keep your finger off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard until you are ready to fire it. Basic safety stuff FTW.
A grip safety is an interesting thing but there are lots of more modern designs that run SAO without them. Even some 1911 knockoffs dispensed with the grip safety.
It’s odd in that I would have no problem with a BHP or CZ 75B without a grip safety but I get squeamish when I think if pinning the grip safety on any of my 1911s.
My biggest issue with grip safeties is not how easily they are deactivated by pressing them in, but in how easily they can fail to be activated enough to shoot with the wrong grip. If I grip with my thumb riding the safety, I have issues depressing the grip safety enough to fire consistently.
I run into problems with undercut trigger guards and high beavertail grip safeties but only on the range when I force my hand as high as possible. This tends to lift the heel of my hand just enough to not activate the grip safety on a few examples that need the safety almost fully depressed. Again, this is a poor fitment problem added to modern modifications.
There was an era where people pinned them on 1911s as well which defeats the grip safety.Wilson Combat EDC X9 Model Handguns
Wilson Combat has developed a new 5 inch barrel EDC X9 long slide version for defensive & recreational shooters that prefer a longer sight radius.
This doesn't have a grip safety. I wonder if you can modify the 1911 45acp or 10mm without the grip safety?
Is the grip safety really needed?
As stated above there are other SAO only guns such as the BHP that do not have the grip safety and the original 1911 gun design as I recall did not either.
The cavalry wanted a grip safety in case they had to drop the pistol to control the horse. The Cav actually wanted the Colt 1909 revolver.
The mag release location and grip safety where items that were liked from the Luger test.
The mag release location and grip safety where items that were liked from the Luger test.
I'm firmly in the "why?" camp on this. This is not a scenario that one should ever encounter unless you intentionally create it, so IMO, it's a non-issue.
Just for fun, though, I got out my 1911s to try to see if I could re-create this issue. Both my SA loaded and EMP4 have deep relief cuts in the top of the beaver tail that do not allow the hammer to contact the beaver tail enough to depress the grip safety (the loaded doesn't touch it at all. The EMP makes contact but doesn't depress it far enough to release).
Interestingly, though, you can pull the hammer back far enough on my 1943 Remington Rand to completely depress the grip safety...and that gun doesn't even have a beaver tail in the modern sense. So maybe it wasn't a design consideration from the getgo...JMB just figured people should be smart enough to not intentionally manipulate the gun into defeating the safety.
Just for fun, though, I got out my 1911s to try to see if I could re-create this issue. Both my SA loaded and EMP4 have deep relief cuts in the top of the beaver tail that do not allow the hammer to contact the beaver tail enough to depress the grip safety (the loaded doesn't touch it at all. The EMP makes contact but doesn't depress it far enough to release).
Interestingly, though, you can pull the hammer back far enough on my 1943 Remington Rand to completely depress the grip safety...and that gun doesn't even have a beaver tail in the modern sense. So maybe it wasn't a design consideration from the getgo...JMB just figured people should be smart enough to not intentionally manipulate the gun into defeating the safety.
So to answer the question as to why someone would want a grip safety that is very easily deactivated , but his is the AAR from an actual self defence shooting involving this very issue. This is from AR-15.com and well worth the read.
Many of you have asked me some great questions concerning the incident I was in last October (2009) and expressed interest in the whole story. Well, after talking to the prosecuting attorney, I was told that for interviews and such, just stick to the facts, so here goes...This is a long read so bear with me please.
Back story: Several friends and I meet on Tues nights at the office of a few lawyers here in town for the purpose of social interaction, maybe have a couple drinks, a good cigar and good conversation. I had missed the last couple meetings leading up to the one on Oct. 13 but promised the guy who organized the group that I would be showing up for this one. Well, I forgot and was watching TV while the wife was helping one of my sons with a science project on electricity and circuits. They couldn't get the thing to work so I got volunteered to go to Wal-Mart to get a new light bulb and battery.
On the way to Wal-Mart, I realized/remembered that I had removed my gun/holster earlier that day to go to the gym at lunch time and laid it on my desk. I debated with myself for a minute about whether or not to spend the extra 10 minutes to run down to the office to arm myself against the masses there at 9:30 at night. Common sense prevailed and I made the extra stop and was on my way. (Crucial turning point #1 of the night)
I got to Wally World and had just collected my items when the cell phone rang. For whatever reason, the first thing that popped in my head was "Oh ****, this is Tues night and I bet it's my buddy calling me to see where I'm at. It turned out that it was my wife who told me that they had gotten the current bulb and battery to work and that I didn't need to bring new ones home. I told her about having forgotten my promise to join up with the Tues night guys and checked with her to make sure it was ok if I just headed on over there. She was fine with it and so I put my stuff back and headed over to the buddy's office.
When I got to the lawyer's office, there were five of my friends outside having a drink, enjoying their cigars and talking in the carport area on the left side of the building. I said hi to them and asked where Brian was. They said he was inside in his office, so I went in and we bull shitted for the next half hour or so. We decided that we should probably go back out and join the rest of the guys and headed out the door.
We were out there for maybe a minute when a guy walked up to our group after appearing from around the corner of the building (not uncommon to have the neighbors come by and chat as there are also houses and apartments in this area) wearing a hooded sweatshirt with the hood up and drawn tight and a scarf or balaclava covering everything but his eyes. Not too uncommon, as it was rather cold and rainy that night. What was uncommon was that he was holding a stainless steel revolver at his side. At first I thought it was a joke that one of the guys had set up. I asked "Can we help you?" I can't remember exactly what he said as he raised the revolver up and pointed it at the group of us, except for him telling us to drop whatever we had in our hands and something along the lines of "this is a robbery." He told us that we were going inside and that if any of us made a move, he would shoot us. I was the last person to walk up the two steps of the side door into the conference room and evidently wasn't moving fast enough for him. He put the muzzle in my back and was pushing me forward telling me to hurry up. In my infinite wisdom, I turned my head toward him and told him to quit shoving me, that I couldn't go any faster than the guy in front of me. In my head, almost like a mantra, there was an alarm going off saying "This is why you carry, this is why you carry this is why you carry."
Once we were inside, he told us to get on the floor face down, on the other side of the conference table. When he made us lay down, I picked the point farthest away from him, hoping to buy some time before he got to me. Once he had us down, he instructed us to take out our wallets, watches, jewelry, etc. He was distracted for just a couple seconds when he was getting one of our guys up to carry the plastic bag. Under the guise of getting my wallet out, I very carefully, while watching him the whole time, removed the 1911 from the IWB holster and hid it under my chest. He was keeping a close watch on us almost the entire time and always had the revolver either on someone or pointed directly at someone. I was watching for it and I really did not have an earlier opportunity for a shot without risking my friends' lives further or creating a hostage situation, which I would have been ill equipped to handle.
For whatever reason, maybe because I mouthed off to him earlier, I don't know, but he only collected from one or two people before walking back to where I was. He saw that I did not have a wallet or anything waiting for him and while standing over me, pulled my leather jacket and shirt up to take my wallet from my back pocket. That is when he found my Milt Sparks IWB holster, now devoid of a firearm. He said something to the effect of "Well well well, what do we have here? Where's the gun?" I told him I didn't have it on me. He repeated the question and said that I wouldn't have a holster if there was no gun. I swore that I didn't have it on me and that I'd left it in my vehicle since I might have a drink or two while I was there. He didn't believe me and told me to get up. He decided to assist me by grabbing onto my jacket with his left hand and pull me up. As I pushed myself up as well, I slid my hands under my chest to grab my pistol.
When he pulled me up, he was at my 5 O'clock position. I was still trying to keep him from seeing my gun until I was able to turn into him, so when I came up, I basically had my right hand (holding the pistol) tight to my stomach/chest with the muzzle pointed in the direction of my left shoulder. I don't know why I did that, except to conceal it and maybe so he couldn't take it away from me. I started turning to my right, into him, flipping the safety at some point along the way. He either saw the gun or heard the safety click as I had turned into him enough for him to be at my 3 O'clock and shoved his revolver inside my open jacket against my stomach and fired the first round. Luckily, his angle was off and it only grazed my stomach. Unluckily, I had my left hand tucked against my left side and the round passed through my palm and out the base of my thumb at my wrist.
I continued turning toward him while lowering my pistol to return fire, which evidently put the right hand directly in the line of fire as he squeezed off another round. I can only assume that my hand blocked the shot from hitting my stomach or chest as we were practically face to face at that point. It took me just a second to recover and he started retreating toward the door, backing away from me and shooting. I got two shots off as he was backing away, both missing him. I had the little problem with the next round not going off, thinking I had a jam, I ducked behind the table to clear the gun and yelled for everyone to stay down. I looked down and saw how bad my hands were as I cleared the round out, and stood back up to continue fire. (Looking back on it, I think I realized that I wasn't getting a good grip due to the screwed up hand and neglected to engage the grip safety) He had his back to the door by now and we exchanged a couple more shots (which is when I scored my hit and near miss) until his revolver hit on spent rounds. I will NEVER forget that. There were three clicks. He realized he was out of ammo and was out the door before I could get another shot off. Even in the heat of the moment, I did not attempt to shoot him in the back or pursue him.
I don't know how I retained the gun after being hit in the strong hand, just as I don't know how I made my hands work to clear the round. I just did. It was a combination of adrenaline, survival instinct and the grace of God. I was completely on automatic. The threat was still there and I couldn't stop until it was gone. One of the other guys finally jumped up after the BG went out the door and locked it so he couldn't reload and come back in. I remember seeing him lock the door and finally sat down on the floor, laid my gun down and started looking at the blood pouring out of my hands. A few of the other guys came over to help me and apply pressure to the wounds while another called 911. I made them repeat to me a few times that everyone else was ok and that no one else had been hit. One of the guys that had been there, told me that it was almost scary how lucid and calm that I stayed the entire time while we waited for the ambulance to arrive. It was also discovered at this time that I'd been shot right above my left pectoral muscle. I don't even recall when that happened.
I'm probably repeating myself from the other posts I've made, in saying this, but it was very surreal and real all rolled into one at the same time. In reality, the whole exchange from the first shot probably didn't last more than 30-40 seconds. I'm only saying that long because of the time I took clearing the chamber. It may have still been less than that. From start to finish, meaning when the guy showed up outside to the time when he left took almost exactly 7 minutes.
There you have it. If you've got questions, I'll do my best to answer them. I didn't post this to be a look at me or I'm a bad ass or anything else. I just thought that if anyone could benefit in even the smallest way from my incident and possibly help, then I would like to turn a ****** encounter into a positive thing.
God Bless you all and thank you so much for the support that you've shown me and my family since this first happened. I couldn't ask for a better group of people to call my extended family and friends.
Justin
ETA Link to original thread with pics, etc. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=984615
Many of you have asked me some great questions concerning the incident I was in last October (2009) and expressed interest in the whole story. Well, after talking to the prosecuting attorney, I was told that for interviews and such, just stick to the facts, so here goes...This is a long read so bear with me please.
Back story: Several friends and I meet on Tues nights at the office of a few lawyers here in town for the purpose of social interaction, maybe have a couple drinks, a good cigar and good conversation. I had missed the last couple meetings leading up to the one on Oct. 13 but promised the guy who organized the group that I would be showing up for this one. Well, I forgot and was watching TV while the wife was helping one of my sons with a science project on electricity and circuits. They couldn't get the thing to work so I got volunteered to go to Wal-Mart to get a new light bulb and battery.
On the way to Wal-Mart, I realized/remembered that I had removed my gun/holster earlier that day to go to the gym at lunch time and laid it on my desk. I debated with myself for a minute about whether or not to spend the extra 10 minutes to run down to the office to arm myself against the masses there at 9:30 at night. Common sense prevailed and I made the extra stop and was on my way. (Crucial turning point #1 of the night)
I got to Wally World and had just collected my items when the cell phone rang. For whatever reason, the first thing that popped in my head was "Oh ****, this is Tues night and I bet it's my buddy calling me to see where I'm at. It turned out that it was my wife who told me that they had gotten the current bulb and battery to work and that I didn't need to bring new ones home. I told her about having forgotten my promise to join up with the Tues night guys and checked with her to make sure it was ok if I just headed on over there. She was fine with it and so I put my stuff back and headed over to the buddy's office.
When I got to the lawyer's office, there were five of my friends outside having a drink, enjoying their cigars and talking in the carport area on the left side of the building. I said hi to them and asked where Brian was. They said he was inside in his office, so I went in and we bull shitted for the next half hour or so. We decided that we should probably go back out and join the rest of the guys and headed out the door.
We were out there for maybe a minute when a guy walked up to our group after appearing from around the corner of the building (not uncommon to have the neighbors come by and chat as there are also houses and apartments in this area) wearing a hooded sweatshirt with the hood up and drawn tight and a scarf or balaclava covering everything but his eyes. Not too uncommon, as it was rather cold and rainy that night. What was uncommon was that he was holding a stainless steel revolver at his side. At first I thought it was a joke that one of the guys had set up. I asked "Can we help you?" I can't remember exactly what he said as he raised the revolver up and pointed it at the group of us, except for him telling us to drop whatever we had in our hands and something along the lines of "this is a robbery." He told us that we were going inside and that if any of us made a move, he would shoot us. I was the last person to walk up the two steps of the side door into the conference room and evidently wasn't moving fast enough for him. He put the muzzle in my back and was pushing me forward telling me to hurry up. In my infinite wisdom, I turned my head toward him and told him to quit shoving me, that I couldn't go any faster than the guy in front of me. In my head, almost like a mantra, there was an alarm going off saying "This is why you carry, this is why you carry this is why you carry."
Once we were inside, he told us to get on the floor face down, on the other side of the conference table. When he made us lay down, I picked the point farthest away from him, hoping to buy some time before he got to me. Once he had us down, he instructed us to take out our wallets, watches, jewelry, etc. He was distracted for just a couple seconds when he was getting one of our guys up to carry the plastic bag. Under the guise of getting my wallet out, I very carefully, while watching him the whole time, removed the 1911 from the IWB holster and hid it under my chest. He was keeping a close watch on us almost the entire time and always had the revolver either on someone or pointed directly at someone. I was watching for it and I really did not have an earlier opportunity for a shot without risking my friends' lives further or creating a hostage situation, which I would have been ill equipped to handle.
For whatever reason, maybe because I mouthed off to him earlier, I don't know, but he only collected from one or two people before walking back to where I was. He saw that I did not have a wallet or anything waiting for him and while standing over me, pulled my leather jacket and shirt up to take my wallet from my back pocket. That is when he found my Milt Sparks IWB holster, now devoid of a firearm. He said something to the effect of "Well well well, what do we have here? Where's the gun?" I told him I didn't have it on me. He repeated the question and said that I wouldn't have a holster if there was no gun. I swore that I didn't have it on me and that I'd left it in my vehicle since I might have a drink or two while I was there. He didn't believe me and told me to get up. He decided to assist me by grabbing onto my jacket with his left hand and pull me up. As I pushed myself up as well, I slid my hands under my chest to grab my pistol.
When he pulled me up, he was at my 5 O'clock position. I was still trying to keep him from seeing my gun until I was able to turn into him, so when I came up, I basically had my right hand (holding the pistol) tight to my stomach/chest with the muzzle pointed in the direction of my left shoulder. I don't know why I did that, except to conceal it and maybe so he couldn't take it away from me. I started turning to my right, into him, flipping the safety at some point along the way. He either saw the gun or heard the safety click as I had turned into him enough for him to be at my 3 O'clock and shoved his revolver inside my open jacket against my stomach and fired the first round. Luckily, his angle was off and it only grazed my stomach. Unluckily, I had my left hand tucked against my left side and the round passed through my palm and out the base of my thumb at my wrist.
I continued turning toward him while lowering my pistol to return fire, which evidently put the right hand directly in the line of fire as he squeezed off another round. I can only assume that my hand blocked the shot from hitting my stomach or chest as we were practically face to face at that point. It took me just a second to recover and he started retreating toward the door, backing away from me and shooting. I got two shots off as he was backing away, both missing him. I had the little problem with the next round not going off, thinking I had a jam, I ducked behind the table to clear the gun and yelled for everyone to stay down. I looked down and saw how bad my hands were as I cleared the round out, and stood back up to continue fire. (Looking back on it, I think I realized that I wasn't getting a good grip due to the screwed up hand and neglected to engage the grip safety) He had his back to the door by now and we exchanged a couple more shots (which is when I scored my hit and near miss) until his revolver hit on spent rounds. I will NEVER forget that. There were three clicks. He realized he was out of ammo and was out the door before I could get another shot off. Even in the heat of the moment, I did not attempt to shoot him in the back or pursue him.
I don't know how I retained the gun after being hit in the strong hand, just as I don't know how I made my hands work to clear the round. I just did. It was a combination of adrenaline, survival instinct and the grace of God. I was completely on automatic. The threat was still there and I couldn't stop until it was gone. One of the other guys finally jumped up after the BG went out the door and locked it so he couldn't reload and come back in. I remember seeing him lock the door and finally sat down on the floor, laid my gun down and started looking at the blood pouring out of my hands. A few of the other guys came over to help me and apply pressure to the wounds while another called 911. I made them repeat to me a few times that everyone else was ok and that no one else had been hit. One of the guys that had been there, told me that it was almost scary how lucid and calm that I stayed the entire time while we waited for the ambulance to arrive. It was also discovered at this time that I'd been shot right above my left pectoral muscle. I don't even recall when that happened.
I'm probably repeating myself from the other posts I've made, in saying this, but it was very surreal and real all rolled into one at the same time. In reality, the whole exchange from the first shot probably didn't last more than 30-40 seconds. I'm only saying that long because of the time I took clearing the chamber. It may have still been less than that. From start to finish, meaning when the guy showed up outside to the time when he left took almost exactly 7 minutes.
There you have it. If you've got questions, I'll do my best to answer them. I didn't post this to be a look at me or I'm a bad ass or anything else. I just thought that if anyone could benefit in even the smallest way from my incident and possibly help, then I would like to turn a ****** encounter into a positive thing.
God Bless you all and thank you so much for the support that you've shown me and my family since this first happened. I couldn't ask for a better group of people to call my extended family and friends.
Justin
ETA Link to original thread with pics, etc. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=984615
