For a New Liberty

[ATM]

For those who would like to learn about libertarian, anarchist or capitalist philosophies or those who'd like to improve their attempts to argue against the actual principles or proposals, here's a link to a free download of Rothbard's often quoted book detailing the subject, For A New Liberty:

https://mises.org/library/new-liberty-libertarian-manifesto

If you can find fault with the historical, ethical or economic principles which form the foundation of this classic presentation, you'll never need to resort to strawman arguments or evasion again.

Enjoy!

 

[jamil]

For those who would like to learn about libertarian, anarchist or capitalist philosophies or those who'd like to improve their attempts to argue against the actual principles or proposals, here's a link to a free download of Rothbard's often quoted book detailing the subject, For A New Liberty:

https://mises.org/library/new-liberty-libertarian-manifesto

If you can find fault with the historical, ethical or economic principles which form the foundation of this classic presentation, you'll never need to resort to strawman arguments or evasion again.

Enjoy!

I had skimmed this before. I'll try to make a more focused attempt. I think by skimming this I have deprived myself of its true perfection hidden within the details. So I should assume then that it will be as perfect as you've promised when scrutenized. I'm sure I'll find zero infirmities with the historical, ethical, or economic principles penned in the ramblings of an ideologue. Because, ideologs are always logically honest. Rose colored glasses always help one to see clearer. I look forward to it, hoping I will be less dissapointed than I was reading Ayn Rand.

 

[Twangbanger]

...If you can find fault with the historical, ethical or economic principles which form the foundation of this classic presentation, you'll never need to resort to strawman arguments or evasion again.

Enjoy!

 

[D-Ric902]

I had skimmed this before. I'll try to make a more focused attempt. I think by skimming this I have deprived myself of its true perfection hidden within the details. So I should assume then that it will be as perfect as you've promised when scrutenized. I'm sure I'll find zero infirmities with the historical, ethical, or economic principles penned in the ramblings of an ideologue. Because, ideologs are always logically honest. Rose colored glasses always help one to see clearer. I look forward to it, hoping I will be less dissapointed than I was reading Ayn Rand.

 

[steveh_131]

I had skimmed this before. I'll try to make a more focused attempt. I think by skimming this I have deprived myself of its true perfection hidden within the details. So I should assume then that it will be as perfect as you've promised when scrutenized. I'm sure I'll find zero infirmities with the historical, ethical, or economic principles penned in the ramblings of an ideologue. Because, ideologs are always logically honest. Rose colored glasses always help one to see clearer. I look forward to it, hoping I will be less dissapointed than I was reading Ayn Rand.

I don't think that you are the strawman-manufacturing audience that he was intending to inform by posting this.

 

[jamil]

I don't think that you are the strawman-manufacturing audience that he was intending to inform by posting this.

Maybe I think there's more unity in the cause than actually is there. When one person declares I'm a statist, perhaps I've overestimated the consensus opinion of that.

Nevertheless, when I have time I look forward to a more focused reading of For a New Liberty. Sorry about the sarcasm earlier. But I almost HAVE to do it now.

 

[steveh_131]

Maybe I think there's more unity in the cause than actually is there. When one person declares I'm a statist, perhaps I've overestimated the consensus opinion of that.

Nevertheless, when I have time I look forward to a more focused reading of For a New Liberty. Sorry about the sarcasm earlier. But I almost HAVE to do it now.

Libertarians are on the receiving end of a lot of illogical idiocy on INGO. Many respond with snark and sarcasm at times.

Do you think libertarians are anarchists? Do you think that we are 'forcing' people to be free? Do you think that advocating libertarian viewpoints on the internet is an initiation of force, and therefore hypocritical? Do you think that we all live in our mother's basements?

I doubt it. Those are the folks who need to do some reading on the subject (but won't).

 

[rhino]

For those who would like to learn about libertarian, anarchist or capitalist philosophies or those who'd like to improve their attempts to argue against the actual principles or proposals, here's a link to a free download of Rothbard's often quoted book detailing the subject, For A New Liberty:

https://mises.org/library/new-liberty-libertarian-manifesto

If you can find fault with the historical, ethical or economic principles which form the foundation of this classic presentation, you'll never need to resort to strawman arguments or evasion again.

Enjoy!

Thank you, sir!

Interesting note: reading the introduction, I saw that Rothbard wrote the book after he was encouraged to do so by none other than Tom Mandel. I "knew" mandel on the WeLL back in the early 1990s before he passed in 1995. In retrospect, along with the original hippie culture that grew the WeLL, there was a significant presence of people (some well known) who espouse libertarian beliefs. Perhaps they infected me with the seeds back then.

 

[D-Ric902]

Libertarians are on the receiving end of a lot of illogical idiocy on INGO. Many respond with snark and sarcasm at times.

Do you think libertarians are anarchists? Do you think that we are 'forcing' people to be free? Do you think that advocating libertarian viewpoints on the internet is an initiation of force, and therefore hypocritical? Do you think that we all live in our mother's basements?

I doubt it. Those are the folks who need to do some reading on the subject (but won't).

there is an old saying

"think what you will, only you have to live with your thoughts"

sorry if I hurt your feelings. Maybe you should try decaf

gotta have thick skin on INGO

 

[steveh_131]

there is an old saying

"think what you will, only you have to live with your thoughts"

sorry if I hurt your feelings. Maybe you should try decaf

gotta have thick skin on INGO

When I said that some people post 'illogical idiocy' here, you immediately thought of yourself?

 

[jamil]

Libertarians are on the receiving end of a lot of illogical idiocy on INGO. Many respond with snark and sarcasm at times.

Do you think libertarians are anarchists? Do you think that we are 'forcing' people to be free? Do you think that advocating libertarian viewpoints on the internet is an initiation of force, and therefore hypocritical? Do you think that we all live in our mother's basements?

I doubt it. Those are the folks who need to do some reading on the subject (but won't).

I dole out my share of sarcasm. Maybe having some fun at libertarians' expense. But I try to spread the sarcasm around. It's like peanut butter.

I don't think libertarians are necessarily more anarchist than social conservatives are theocracists. However, I do think the logical extreme of libertarianism is anarchy. The logical extreme of evangelical social conservatism is a totalitarian theocracy. The logical extreme of progressivism is some kind of totalitarian collectivism.

I don't think libertarians want to force people to be free. However, to implement such a thing would require people to give up some things they value, which they would never do. Therefore an ideologically pure libertarian society is impossible without force. Not saying that you advocate that. Just saying you'd need that to get it done.

Advocating libertarian viewpoints on the internet or anywhere is simply free expression and not an initiation of force. However accusing people who disagree with those viewpoints as being statists, or whatever pejorative "ist" comes to mind, could potentially be seen as hypocritical to the libertarian sentiment.

Mother's basements, a metaphor for people who do not make their own way when they are otherwise capable. I think one might find self proclaimed libertarians, social conservatives, progressives, whatever kinds of people living in their mom's basements (Mom's? Heh, in my house, it's MY basement). Basement dwelling is a matter of personal character. Any of those groups, except progressives, maybe, might say basement dwellers aren't real <insert ideology> because it goes against their underlying principles

I have no idea why I spent all that time to say not much of anything.

 

[steveh_131]

I have no idea why I spent all that time to say not much of anything.

well you did do a great job of answering my rhetorical questions

Seriously though, your arguments are logical and reasonable. Even if I sometimes disagree with them, we can at least have a reasonable back and forth.

Maybe if people became informed by reading this, we'd have more of that around here.

 

[D-Ric902]

well you did do a great job of answering my rhetorical questions

Seriously though, your arguments are logical and reasonable. Even if I sometimes disagree with them, we can at least have a reasonable back and forth.

Maybe if people became informed by reading this, we'd have more of that around here.

I was trying to be nice
My first thought was to post the butthurt meme

Im not as nice as jamil

 

[steveh_131]

My first thought was to post the butthurt meme

I don't think you're using the butthurt meme properly if you thought it applied here.

 

[D-Ric902]

Libertarians are on the receiving end of a lot of illogical idiocy on INGO. Many respond with snark and sarcasm at times.

Do you think libertarians are anarchists? Do you think that we are 'forcing' people to be free? Do you think that advocating libertarian viewpoints on the internet is an initiation of force, and therefore hypocritical? Do you think that we all live in our mother's basements?

I doubt it. Those are the folks who need to do some reading on the subject (but won't).

Sure sounds like
Butthurt to me
Maybe Im over sensitive

 

[ATM]

If these principles, the whole of them, were so easily refuted, I'd think we'd see them more frequently challenged directly rather than being purposely or ignorantly mischaracterized so as to be casually dismissed.

And I'm not as nice as D-Ric

...or as sensitive.

 

[jamil]

If these principles, the whole of them, were so easily refuted, I'd think we'd see them more frequently challenged directly rather than being purposely or ignorantly mischaracterized so as to be casually dismissed.

And I'm not as nice as D-Ric

...or as sensitive.

To meet your challenge one must read 400+ pages of very dry language, and then spend a significant amount of time parsing which principles you're referring to from reams of filler. And then develop an opposing argument.

Presenting it as you have makes it a task few people on this forum would bother to take on. And, presumably, after waiting a few days with no takers, you would claim victory, do your dance, and forever cite this thread as proof that there is no rebuttal to your principles. That's a great tool for casual dismissal.

Of course, you could make your challenge beyond reproach. In other words, it would be more intellectually honest to challenge dissenters in a way that they are actually likely to take you up on it. Go the extra mile. Make it easy for them to try. Summarize the principles in a few core assertions. Support your assertions with concise references from the book if you'd like.

Then when there's silence, THEN you can claim victory and do whatever dance makes you feel vindicated. But throwing this book at people and daring them to refute it is not any more intellectually honest than Hillary throwing hundreds of thousands of printed emails at the state department to fulfill her email "transparency".

 

[ATM]

To meet your challenge one must read 400+ pages of very dry language, and then spend a significant amount of time parsing which principles you're referring to from reams of filler. And then develop an opposing argument...

Not really. I've simply given a link to a nice free reference for anyone would like to learn about libertarian, anarchist or capitalist philosophies or those who'd like to improve their attempts to argue against the actual principles or proposals.

There are many references available, most in far less detail, yet I still rarely see argument against any of the foundational principles upon which the philosophy is actually based and by which it has been refined. I see lots and lots of straw men and casual dismissal. This is simply an effort to minimize the latter and encourage consideration of the former.

No challenge, no dance. I realize that most only give Liberty lip service and have no interest in pursuing it as a guiding principle for an orderly and prosperous society, that most will still choose subjugation to a ruling state. Maybe reading this one book would fan back to life a nearly dormant ember of their heritage, the true spirit of the American Revolution.

There it is. Do with it what you like.

 

[rhino]

WHY DO I HATE LIBERTY??!!! WHY?!!

 

[Gluemanz28]

To meet your challenge one must read 400+ pages of very dry language, and then spend a significant amount of time parsing which principles you're referring to from reams of filler. And then develop an opposing argument.

Presenting it as you have makes it a task few people on this forum would bother to take on. And, presumably, after waiting a few days with no takers, you would claim victory, do your dance, and forever cite this thread as proof that there is no rebuttal to your principles. That's a great tool for casual dismissal.

Of course, you could make your challenge beyond reproach. In other words, it would be more intellectually honest to challenge dissenters in a way that they are actually likely to take you up on it. Go the extra mile. Make it easy for them to try. Summarize the principles in a few core assertions. Support your assertions with concise references from the book if you'd like.

Then when there's silence, THEN you can claim victory and do whatever dance makes you feel vindicated. But throwing this book at people and daring them to refute it is not any more intellectually honest than Hillary throwing hundreds of thousands of printed emails at the state department to fulfill her email "transparency".

That is by far the best post that I have seen all year on INGO. You nailed it.... kudos to you.
Rep coming your way!!!!!!