First Strike: Trachea or Other?

[Wabatuckian]

Hello,

I've mentioned elsewhere that my cousin was a Navy SEAL with multiple black belts.

Whenever there's a family gathering, he and I would go off to the side to spar, or, more recently, I teach his kid (a teenager) while my cousin observes, since we're trained in pretty much the same thing and he's a higher level than I.

At the last family gathering, the three of us got together, and since his son hasn't learned much at all, I was teaching. Reflexes, thinking on one's feet, etc. Fun way to pass the time.

This lead to a discussion between my cousin and myself. Part of it had to do with thinking while fighting (I don't think it's the best way to do things, that it'll slow you down while my cousin believes otherwise, but in the end we were really saying the same thing), and the other had to do with where to strike first.

The military taught my cousin to almost always go for the throat first. That's a great theory and it's one I would use in actual combat where I stood a chance of being killed by an enemy soldier. However, having seen the results of trachea strikes (a couple had to be intibated right there), I argued that in civilian life, I don't think that's best. My tactic has always been to attack whatever part of the body reaches me first. This usually ends the fight I've found, and doesn't kill anyone. (If I need to kill someone, I'd pull a knife or gun before using my hands.)

He and I could not reach an agreement on this. We didn't fight, but we have great respect for each other and agree to disagree, but don't disagree often. In fact, I think this is the first time.

He's older than I and he's someone I've always looked up to, but I simply can't see using a kill strike right away when attacked in civilian life unless the person is armed.

I'd like to hear what you ladies'n'gents think. If you're attacked by someone using his bare hands, would you try a submission or knockout first, or go directly for a kill shot?

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Josh <><

 

[Prometheus]

I have to take issue with this "civilian life" concept. Death is death. A battle field can just as easily be a desert in the middle east as it is the local Meijer parking lot.

I don't pick fights, I don't escalate situations. If I find myself in a fight, it's because some nut job is trying to kill me. I'll use whatever means I can to end the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Should that be a strike to the throat, so be it. I'm not getting any younger and the consequences of losing a fight could be losing my life. If cops can say "my number one job is to go home alive", so can I. Pink and frothy.

 

[jeremy]

You can either fight to win or fight to live. If you don't see a ring or a pretty girl holding numbers over her head fight to live!

 

[Tinman]

Jeremy, if there were pretty girls holding numbers over their head, there'd probably be more street fights.

Sorry for the thread drift there.

Josh,
There’s a lot going on in your initial question, and a few things that need to be clarified.

First, by first shot are you referring to the “I had my head tucked between the cheeks and this is my first and possibly only response to the threat” (the effectiveness of the strike, and situation may determine if I get a chance at shot #2). In that case, as far as I’m concerned, I’ve got to agree with the previous two posts, fights on, I’m doing anything I have too to survive. If the bad guy dies in the process, oh well, failure of the victim selection process on his part.

Second is a bit more complicated. If you’re referring to a pre-emptive strike, i.e. he’s giving you all tells of an impending attack that we need to nip in the bud, then restraint is probably in order. Even then, the throat isn’t an off limits target. What we need is a response that if we have misread the situation doesn’t escalate to an attempted murder charge. This rules out going to knives, guns, and most impact weapons right off the bat. I’ve really trained and used 3 different strikes in this capacity. The first is the eye jab (as taught by SouthNarc). A simple flick of the wrist and you can cause a person enough discomfort that they will temporarily close there eyes allowing you to do something else to rectify the situation. Again, the beauty of this is that should you have read the situation wrong, there is very little risk of permanent damage, it’s more like when you get something in your eye, irritating, but seldom permanent. The second is in fact the yoke of hand shot to the throat. Once again, this is not a driving thrust through his wind pipe, it’s just a simple snap to the throat to produce the cough and gag reflex. This is sometimes referred to as chicken neck. My last staple opener is a forearm shot to the side of the neck and jaw line (as taught by Marc Denney of Dog Bros fame). This is combined with rapid movement off the X, and through the threat. The key here is don’t stop moving and leave the area.

That’s pretty much my round up, I guess all I can say is that first shot is as situationally dependant as any other technique I may employ.

The second question you alluded to, but didn’t really outright ask is one of thinking during a fight. My personal opinion is that’s why we train our techniques and principles so hard. If you need to think about the proper way to throw that elbow strike, you’ll probably miss the opportunity, but you have got to constantly be thinking, and looking for openings to apply the techniques you do know. If that weren’t the case, every fight would always end with the guy that has better memorized and practiced his “moves” being the victor. We all know that isn’t the case. Fighting, and especially self defense fighting is a thinking mans activity dumbing it down is only done to justify motor reflex training.

As always, these are just my thoughts and opinions, I’m sure some may disagree.

Tinman….

 

[Bill of Rights]

I have to take issue with this "civilian life" concept. Death is death. A battle field can just as easily be a desert in the middle east as it is the local Meijer parking lot.

I don't pick fights, I don't escalate situations. If I find myself in a fight, it's because some nut job is trying to kill me. I'll use whatever means I can to end the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Should that be a strike to the throat, so be it. I'm not getting any younger and the consequences of losing a fight could be losing my life. If cops can say "my number one job is to go home alive", so can I. Pink and frothy.

I will begin by emphasizing that I am not in any way any kind of "expert" on this. Like you, I don't pick fights and do my best to de-escalate.

What I took from Josh's post in re: civilian vs. military combat is that when you are a uniformed combatant, you can be fairly certain that someone else who is also a uniformed combatant, just not your uniform, is there to kill you. In a civilian setting, this is not nearly so certain. This is illustrated by the fact that companies that print targets make adhesive stickers to put over "soccer mom"'s hand so that instead of a cell phone, she's holding a pistol pointed at you. I agree that even if all the guy wants is your wallet, he's a threat, and you don't know that he doesn't have an icepick somewhere, but if confronted with the likelihood of extreme (non-lethal) pain, would he simply run away? We don't want to find out if the answer is "no", but we also don't want to kill unnecessarily.

Blessings,
B

 

[Crystalship1]

Josh,

JimFloyd would be a good one to ask here. He's a defensive tactics instructor with a plethora of certifications within several different disciplines.
Meet… Jim Floyd | Safety Educators | Indianapolis, IN | OSHA | First Aid | CPR | Personal Protection | Firearms | Safety Courses

Hello,

I'd like to hear what you ladies'n'gents think. If you're attacked by someone using his bare hands, would you try a submission or knockout first, or go directly for a kill shot?

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Josh <><

 

[Sailor]

I dont have enough training to think about the best way to end the fight.

If someone is trying to hit me, the only way I am going to fist fight is if I cant grab my gun, then I will punch, kick the neck and groin till I can grab my gun.

Too many wack jobs out there, this is not an after school fight like back in 70's.

 

[sjstill]

Saw a video in the academy where a cabbie was getting frisky with a DT instructor. The DT instructor gave the cabbie a backhanded Brachial plexus (side of the neck) shot, and the cabbie dropped like a rock. Game over.

 

[dburkhead]

The first question is: why are you fighting? If you are defending yourself from some stranger in a bar or on a street where you run the risk of serious injury or death that's one thing. If Uncle Al get's a bit belligerant after having too much to drink, that's something else.

The throat can be an effective target but it's also a small one and hard to hit in a real fight (similar problem with eye jabs and other such strikes taught in many martial arts). The kind of drills that one does in a martial arts or "self defense" class all too often don't translate well into real combat.

My own primary strategy is usually to go for a grab, but that's because I trained in Judo. People who don't train in grappling are usually quite surprised by how effective it can be and are also usually quite unprepared to defend against it.

Some time back, in the first "Ultimate Fighting Championships" (which brought to US attention what was already popular in some other parts of the world, notably Brazilian "Vale Tudo," "Anything goes" matches), a lot of Traditional martial artists competed and were quite shocked to see how vulnerable they were to things like Judo, Brazilian JuJitsu, and Wrestling. Grappling arts totally dominated the events.

Since then, events like the UFC have become more even in terms of grappling vs. striking, for several reasons: strikers competing in those events train grappling and how to defend against it, the rules have been altered had the effect of shifting the balance, and strikers have basically gotten away from the fancy "precision strikes" and gone to more fundamental basic punches and kicks.

The thing I like about Judo is the ability to control how much damage one inflicts on an opponent. I can wrestle someone to the ground and pin them until they calm down, or I can drop them with the combined force of both our body weights straight on their heads. (The joke is: avoid confrontation, but if you must fight, hit your opponent with the largest weapon you have--the planet.)

The biggest factor in what was successful is based on the "you fight like you train" idea. Judo's main practice if full contact, trying to use your techniques full force against somebody who is not only trying their level best to stop you but to do the same to you. Wrestling and Brazilian JuJitsy are much the same. Boxing and Muy Thai both use full contact sparring as training. Etc.

All of this, of course, is if I'm in a situation where using my gun is either inappropriate (drunk Uncle Al) or unavailable (Indyparks, if I absolutely must go to Illinois for some reason, having to fend off a surprise attack before I can draw my gun, that sort of thing).

Hope this helps.

 

[Crystalship1]

Saw a video in the academy where a cabbie was getting frisky with a DT instructor. The DT instructor gave the cabbie a backhanded Brachial plexus (side of the neck) shot, and the cabbie dropped like a rock. Game over.

JimFloyd showed us this security cam video too and it was actually the cabbie's fare (tall skinny black guy) who was fighting with his girlfriend and the cabbie was trying to get him calmed-down and back into his cab. DT class had just let out and the whole class was going to get some lunch when the instructor asked the cabbie if everything was OK, skinny-**** went ape on him and then... as you said.... SLAP!!!! Cabbie and girlfriend were last seen scooping skinny-**** back into the cab as the DT class walked on to lunch!!!

 

[Bushido Devil Dog]

This is the vid, complete with badly done, over-the-top commentary by John Bunnell:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEv6i-lhIWc]YouTube - Pimp vs Karate[/ame]

 

[sjstill]

Yup, that's the one. I don't think the one I saw had the commentary....

 

[Crystalship1]

Yup, that's the one. I don't think the one I saw had the commentary....

Yep!!!

 

[kludge]

As one having had a blow to the trachea during a high school football game... well, it was the longest 30 seconds of my life.

I was going full speed and it was a cheap shot after the whistle, was not intending to hit or ready to be hit.

I instantly collapsed and was laid out flat, trachea paralyzed, unable to breathe.

The coach was looking at all the blood from my chin (split my chin open)... I wasn't able to tell him that it was my throat, not my chin.

Slowly I was able to breath again, and went and got my stitches.

An intentional blow to the trachea is deadly force. Make no bones about it.

If the guy needs to go down but deadly force is not required, then by all means, use another method.

 

[TRWXXA]

The thing to remember is that when it comes to using force, people who've had defensive training will be held to a different standard than those who haven't.

Let's say I (with no record of formal defensive training) get into a situation where I have to use physical force to defend myself, and I lash out and hit the assailant in the throat (causing respiratory distress, followed by respiratory arrest, followed by cardiac arrest) and he dies. I was using reasonable force, and, well, that's just a lucky hit for me (decidedly unlucky for the dirtbag taking the dirt-nap).

If the same thing happens to a martial arts "expert", the prosecutor can look at it like the "expert" knew he/she was using deadly force, and could have opted to use a less lethal technique.

Along the same lines... You marksmen out there should remember that, after putting a double-tap into the 10-ring of the guy who just broke into your house, you should put a "stray round" or two into the couch or ceiling (good thing bullets aren't sequentially numbered). You don't want the next-of-kin's, ACLU-funded attorney coming after you under the premise that with your superior skills you could have "shot-to-wound".

 

[Disposable Heart]

The thing to remember is that when it comes to using force, people who've had defensive training will be held to a different standard than those who haven't.

Let's say I (with no record of formal defensive training) get into a situation where I have to use physical force to defend myself, and I lash out and hit the assailant in the throat (causing respiratory distress, followed by respiratory arrest, followed by cardiac arrest) and he dies. I was using reasonable force, and, well, that's just a lucky hit for me (decidedly unlucky for the dirtbag taking the dirt-nap).

If the same thing happens to a martial arts "expert", the prosecutor can look at it like the "expert" knew he/she was using deadly force, and could have opted to use a less lethal technique.

Along the same lines... You marksmen out there should remember that, after putting a double-tap into the 10-ring of the guy who just broke into your house, you should put a "stray round" or two into the couch or ceiling (good thing bullets aren't sequentially numbered). You don't want the next-of-kin's, ACLU-funded attorney coming after you under the premise that with your superior skills you could have "shot-to-wound".

As much as I have lots of respect for people like Masaad Ayoob, but the idea of superior training and firepower (modifications to weapons, handloaded ammo) playing a piece in court is sort of untested. Seriously, how many cases involving this situation have actually been turned against the defendant? I see crap like this all the time and it confuses me to no end that people have to "set up" the shooting. Shoot the jerk, when police arrive: I was in fear for my life and shot him, I would like to help you with your investigation but I need to speak with my lawyer before releasing any more information. Practice that and you will be fine. If you "paint" a scene for the cops, telling them about the pink mist, or how tacticool one is, then yes, you may be held to a "higher" scrutiny. If one gasses on about how they were training in ninjitsu or something (all I know is ka-knife or Ka-chair ), the police may write this in the report.

On a second note: Is there any actual legislation that concludes that people with martial arts training are considered weapons? I think this is Fudd houey, but need information to disprove it.

My first strike (if hand to hand) was always taught to be the knee (side kick to cap) or spear fist to throat (gotta love the Army basic HTH). If shooting, I aim for tracea or face; COM if all I can see/hit in moment. I want the round to slam into the backbone, break it and fill their lungs with blood. I want that scumbag to drown before the police arrive or at minimum, stop the fight by severing the communicative chord to the rest of the body. That is what I was taught. People always say "get off the X", I gathere/ taught to just move the X. But this isnt something one talks to the police about in an after-shooting event.

 

[dclaarjr]

At my age, the only way I'm doing any hand to hand is if I am somewhere I cannot carry.

I was a Ranger and I have had hand to hand training. I too know the trachea shots, the knee caps etc... If it comes down to it, I am going after the most painful area if not the most lethal that I can. I cannot go toe to toe with a 20 year old anymore.

It depends on the opponent though, A lot of people protect different areas in a fight. I say just get to what is open. BTW: I have noticed over the years that the family jewels are often left unprotected. I'd rather make them wish they were dead than make them dead.

 

[sjstill]

disregard....

 

[Tinman]

The thing to remember is that when it comes to using force, people who've had defensive training will be held to a different standard than those who haven't.

Let's say I (with no record of formal defensive training) get into a situation where I have to use physical force to defend myself, and I lash out and hit the assailant in the throat (causing respiratory distress, followed by respiratory arrest, followed by cardiac arrest) and he dies. I was using reasonable force, and, well, that's just a lucky hit for me (decidedly unlucky for the dirtbag taking the dirt-nap).

If the same thing happens to a martial arts "expert", the prosecutor can look at it like the "expert" knew he/she was using deadly force, and could have opted to use a less lethal technique.

Along the same lines... You marksmen out there should remember that, after putting a double-tap into the 10-ring of the guy who just broke into your house, you should put a "stray round" or two into the couch or ceiling (good thing bullets aren't sequentially numbered). You don't want the next-of-kin's, ACLU-funded attorney coming after you under the premise that with your superior skills you could have "shot-to-wound".

Wow, where do we even start? First I have to go with DH here, I have seen no case (other than the movie Con Air) where a persons training played a role in their prosecution. That's not to say it's not out there, but I am not aware of any.

The advice to intentionally miss however, could be used to establish inability, and therefore neglegence. This would usually also need some type of unintended statement by the shooter at the scene or during post incident questioning. I have seen a few cases of this.

As much as I have lots of respect for people like Masaad Ayoob, but the idea of superior training and firepower (modifications to weapons, handloaded ammo) playing a piece in court is sort of untested. Seriously, how many cases involving this situation have actually been turned against the defendant? I see crap like this all the time and it confuses me to no end that people have to "set up" the shooting.

On the other hand, mods to the gun, or handloaded ammo have been used in court. Again this is often coupled with a stupid statement by the shooter that muddied the water.

As DH said best advice is a short statement to the police on arrival, confirming you were in fear for your life, then ask for your lawyer and shut up. John Farnam put out a really good email on this a few years back, I'll see if I can find it.

Tinman....