Enemy in the White House: OBAMA WILL RELEASE PICS OF US SOLDIERS "ABUSING" TERRORISTS

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  • dburkhead

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    Of course the military does not answer directly to me, but if I am to engage in my duty as a citizen to keep a watchful eye on my government, keeping an eye on the military is necessarily included in that. I don't believe there is any reason to think that the military, broadly speaking, has anything to be ashamed of with regard to the past 7 or 8 years. I do believe the various administrators of the military do, and I have taken them to task for those things.

    That said, I still see no reason why I shouldn't be apprised of the situations I'm putatively asking soldiers to be part of or not. I do not have a voice in whether soldier Smith does such and such. I do have a voice in whether he should be where he is to begin with.

    The war of pictures-as-propaganda has been fought by both sides, and I see no reason to stop it. My largely military family has been sharing all sorts of photos from Iraq and Afghanistan, that present a different picture of the conflict than the media. I think that's great. We don't need fewer images of what goes on, we need more. We need a clearer image of what the stakes are, what the costs are, what the benefits are. I don't see how anything in our society is aided by covering things up.

    So everything in your life is an open book? Everything you do, everything you say, everything you write, everything? After all you "don't see how anything in our society is aided by covering things up."

    When I hire a professional my main interest is if the professional is honest and competent. After that, I do not get much into how he does his job. I don't need to know that and, quite frankly, I'm generally not qualified to judge that. If there's some question about the work the professional is doing or has done, I take it to other professionals, or at least people whose job it is to oversea the work of that professional.

    In this case, the military is the "professional." I served 6 years in the military (Air Force), have a number of friends who are current and past military (most of my friends, in fact), spend a lot of time reading things like military history and some professional military literature and still I'm not qualified to judge most of what they do.

    One of the problems with too much "openness" is that folk get the idea that they are qualified to judge, that their opinion should carry as much weight as that of professionals who devote their lives to the subject. And so the nation is filled with armchair quarterbacks constantly explaining why the military is wrong.

    And then when you add in that the main sources of the "information" are highly biased, well.... I'll see your "largely military family" and their photos and raise you Time, Newsweek, MSNBC, CNN, TBS, and so on and so forth.

    Oh and why should your opinion on why they should be there be given any more credence than your opinion on tactical doctrine when for most people, that too has been carefully crafted by the Media. The main reason to go into Afghanistan was pretty simple: they were sheltering the man who orchestrated 9/11. Iraq was more complex, but you'd never know that from the media: "Bush lied and people died" was the mantra, never mind that the "lies" were the same things Clinton was saying when he was President, that various world intelligence organizations were saying, that pretty much everyone was saying until after the war overthrow of Saddam's regime was over. Then suddenly it became politically expedient (in that it was a useful "stick" with which to beat the current administration in power) to pretend one had never supported it in the first place (Hillary Clinton had more stones than John Kerry in that regard in 2004--he flip flopped on the issue, she didn't).

    And, of course, the media never mentions any of the reasons other than WMD for going into Iraq, despite that those reasons were listed in various speeches Bush gave before the war for going into Iraq--the same reasons that led Congress to vote him war powers, essentially authorizing him to do just that.

    Pictures? Even if the pictures aren't doctored, simply taking them out of context can "lie with the truth." Example: The Rodney King incident. You've probably seen the video of Rodney King lying on the ground with officers surrounding him beating on him with their sticks. Horrible, I know. However, what I'd bet you haven't seen is the first part of that video--the part that never got any airtime--of Rodney King attacking a female police officer, which is what led to him being taken down and, every time he moved, he got hit. While I, personally think that the actions were excessive once they had that many officers on the scene, I'm not so quick to be sure since I've never been in that situation and certainly don't have to face what a police officer faces daily. And with that reasonable doubt, I'd be unlikely to be able to vote to convict on assault charges. And, it would seem that a jury of their peers who, unlike those who watched the nightly news, did see the full video, agreed with that position.

    So Obama is going to release pics of US soldiers "abusing" terrorists. That, right there, tells us that this will be a biased sample. So you see someone lying on the ground with a gun stuck in their mouth. Is the guard just being intimidating or was the guy just taken down because he'd grabbed for a guard's weapon? You see a picture of a guard standing over a naked prisoner. Abuse like at Abu Ghraib, or just the exact moment of the completion of a strip search, where the team has just backed off (or been cropped from the shot) and only that guard happens to be in the field of view, said strip search conducted because the guards had reasonable cause to beleive that the prisoner had obtained a weapon or other contraband.

    Lying with the truth. And that's even leaving aside the possibility of doctored photos. And given how the media has outright lied on the subject in the past, how can one discount that possibility?

    So, no, I don't see how any such "release" serves any purpose other than attempting to inflame public opinion in furtherance of a witch hunt.
     

    dburkhead

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    As we stand today, the media is just another arm of the government for the most part.

    I think you're mistaken here. The media isn't another arm of the government. The media is another arm of the most left wing of the Democratic Party.
     

    SavageEagle

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    I go to trade some ammo and come back and you people have let loose into one helluva convo! Great convo btw. David and Ranger put it very well. I like the POTUS in charge of the military and I don't want the Military to be open to public scrutiny. I don't want to know where the Black OPs are happening because if I know, so does the enemy. That's a bit counter-productive in my book. Sure, there's things I don't agree with that the military does, but they are following the orders of the higher chain of command. While their not aways the best and brightest or have an agenda, they're probably a lot better military strategists than normal people. Individual soldiers are what matters. They have a choice to follow good and bad orders. Like shooting Americans. I think most soldiers would at LEAST hesitate to do so. Especially if SHTF were to happen. Some wouldn't but I bet most would.

    Either way, I like where you guys are going with this. I just had to fly through 4 pages of stuff so if I'm off base here, just ignore me. :D
     

    Fletch

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    I go to trade some ammo and come back and you people have let loose into one helluva convo! Great convo btw. David and Ranger put it very well. I like the POTUS in charge of the military and I don't want the Military to be open to public scrutiny. I don't want to know where the Black OPs are happening because if I know, so does the enemy. That's a bit counter-productive in my book.

    No one is arguing for the release of top secret materials, at least insofar as they affect present operations. I do think they should be declassified ion a more timely basis than "when everyone involved on either side is dead", but that's just me.

    Sure, there's things I don't agree with that the military does, but they are following the orders of the higher chain of command. While their not aways the best and brightest or have an agenda, they're probably a lot better military strategists than normal people. Individual soldiers are what matters. They have a choice to follow good and bad orders. Like shooting Americans. I think most soldiers would at LEAST hesitate to do so. Especially if SHTF were to happen. Some wouldn't but I bet most would.

    That's a question I have. I'd like to trust the military in that regard, but given the contempt shown toward civilians by some military members of this board (e.g., "shut the f*ck up"), I'm not so sure such trust would be well-placed.
     

    Fletch

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    So everything in your life is an open book? Everything you do, everything you say, everything you write, everything? After all you "don't see how anything in our society is aided by covering things up."

    In our increasingly surveillance-oriented society, it's pretty much an expectation that anything you do can and probably will be captured or documented in some fashion by random parties. Whether this is cause for concern is another debate; the fact is that anyone who wants to know anything about me probably doesn't have to dig very hard. The fact is though that I'm too boring for anyone to care enough to check me out.
     

    SavageEagle

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    No one is arguing for the release of top secret materials, at least insofar as they affect present operations. I do think they should be declassified ion a more timely basis than "when everyone involved on either side is dead", but that's just me..

    THere's a dam good reason those classifed things are such. They tell of how current operations work. Most things in the military are classified for 25 years because tactics don't COMPLETELY change for so long AND most things that happened 25 years ago have little consequence in present day as the soldiers are either KIA or retired, or passed on OR it no longer matters. At least those were the reasons given to me by my Cousin who was in the hypocrisy they call Military Intel. I'll have to ask him next time I see him who he was out of and what his rank was.


    That's a question I have. I'd like to trust the military in that regard, but given the contempt shown toward civilians by some military members of this board (e.g., "shut the f*ck up"), I'm not so sure such trust would be well-placed.

    Even I have contempt for some of us civilians who blast on service members. Not saying you were, but it was getting there. Either way, those people back in the 70's who spat on the soldiers returning from Vietnam had kids and taught them the same mentality as they show it even today. When people begin hating on the military I can see why a soldier would get defensive having to put up with people like that. The same can be said for LEO's aswell, although some deserve the crap we give them when they have an attitude like they are above everyone including the law. You have that in EVERY profession. But Military and LE are looked upon with a higher scruitiny, deservingly so, but get a lot of undeserved hatred from a great many people regardless if they are on the side of good or bad.
     

    SavageEagle

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    In our increasingly surveillance-oriented society, it's pretty much an expectation that anything you do can and probably will be captured or documented in some fashion by random parties. Whether this is cause for concern is another debate; the fact is that anyone who wants to know anything about me probably doesn't have to dig very hard. The fact is though that I'm too boring for anyone to care enough to check me out.

    I know that's not directed at me but I would like to point out that those random parties are NOT under the control of the public and they are overstepping their boundrys left and right. The AFT, the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, SS, DHS, FEMA, none of them are efficient and we could certainly do away with all but 3 of them. The FBI, the CIA, and the SS. The rest are irrelavent and a waste of money.
     

    finity

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    The problem with your logic is that you are not qualified to decide whether they did anything wrong or not.

    Maybe, but there are a lot of ex-miltitary people in the civilian ranks who have been there, done that. Not to mention that those that are tried for crimes are done so by court-martial not a civilian court. So what is that logic again?

    [/quote]Until you have walked a mile in their combat boots or "seen the elephant" or what ever cool euphemism for combat you want to insert SHUT THE HELL UP![/quote]

    You sure like to tell other people to shuit up a lot. Can't stand up to the the debate?

    Its often not a matter of "will this save countless lives in the future?" Its a matter of " Will this save MY ass today?" Until you have crossed a point where theory gives way to practice you simply aren't qualified to judge. In a jury of their peers keep in mind you are NOT a peer.

    You seem to be forgetting that there are rules of war. Not only is there rules in the UCMJ but in a little thing called the Geneva Conventions.

    Besides these pictures are not of "soldiers doing what they had to do to survive" it was soldiers abusing detainees while in a secure setting in a military prison. Big difference there, hombre.

    All this does is feed an anti US military propaganda machine that sickeningly enough it seems our current administration is becoming a part.

    If they're embarrased enough about their actions that they don't want them to be made public maybe they shouldn't have done the things in the pictures.

    So would you feel the same way about the LEOs in this country being given a free pass to do things "that they had to do to get the job done"? Nobody is qualified to judge them unless they've done the job, right? It just breeds contempt for LE who have an impossible job to do by releasing video or pictures of some misguided LEO beating or otherwise abusing a prisoner in a jail or who is in cuffs, right? It shouldn't even matter if they were convicted or not. How can you get a good record on convictions if we have to always follow that "damned" Constitution. I think that baptist minister who was assaulted by BP should have just kept his mouth shut because they were just doing what had to be done. He probably deserved it anyway.[/sarcasm]

    I believe that most of our military try to do what is right and moral but sometimes they make mistakes and those make it easy for the rest of us to Monday morning quarterback.

    And as stated above they have to answer for those mistakes just as we would if found in a parallel civilian situation. Even in self-defense we don't have carte blanche to do whatever we want in any given situation. There are still rules to follow. If you fail to follow the rules you pay the price.

    I am responsible for my actions but not to you. I am the one who carries the weight of my experience we do not share this burden.

    That is absolutely incorrect. You (as in the military in general) are a representative of me (as in the USA in general) when we (the aforemention general USA) send you off to a foreign land to enact our policies abroad. We as the general public absolutely have a right to know what our military is doing in our name. You really have no concern that if the military were to have free reign to operate in secret with no ramifications for their actions from the public that there wouldn't be more unnecessary brutality at the hands of that military? We have abuses even now when its still possible for the truth to get out eventually.

    But we're not getting the truth. We're getting Pravda--the current Administration's spin on whatever truth there is.

    Oh you mean like the last administration did to get us into this war in the first place?

    As usual, they're trying to convict in the Court of Public Opinion in lieu of any actual pursuit of justice.This isn't an investigation, it's a witch hunt.

    Here's some truth for you:

    Both Peolosi and Reid were in the decision loop on using things like waterboarding for interrogation. They've had 2 years with a majority in both the House and the Senate. Why is it only now that the Democrats are "investigating" this? In another forum the "local leftist" argued that they didn't bring it up earlier because of "political expediency" but if that's the case, how do we know that it's not "political expediency" rather than any pursuit of "justice" that's driving things now?

    Like it or not the majority of the public saw what was happening in the last administration & thats why the Republicans lost in 2006 & again in 2008. People wanted answers that they could fully see they weren't getting from Bush & his people.

    They blocked every attempt at investigations at every turn through claims of executive priveledge or just out & out disregarding congressional oversight & subpeonas. Thats why the Democrats lost some job approval in the last congress because they were sent there to do something about Bush & his out of control administration & they didn't. Every time it was brought up the right threw their little tantrums. The Democratws tried to be reasonable to try to work with an administration that basically said "you do it my way or else".

    As for what INRanger said about doing bad things to bad people. My brother is a VN Vet. He is someone that I admire and respect. I consider him to be a very good person. There were some things that were done while he was in the service that have stayed with him because he had to react in a way that was contrary to what he would normally do. Should he have been punished for those things?

    If they were illegal IAW the rules of military justice or the Geneva Conventions, absolutely. Theres always so much about the rule of law. That applies just as to miltary as civilians. THERE ARE REASONS FOR THOSE RULES.

    Are you the President, Secretary of Defense, or Secretary of Army/Navy/Air Force? If not then "civilian control of the military" is not relevant for you.

    Wrong. It absolutely is relevant to me...& you...& you...etc.

    [/quote]"Civilian control of the military" means that the military chain of command ends with civilians, not that every ignoramus with an opinion (not calling you an ignoramus, BTW, just so we're clear on that) is qualified to judge what the military does or how it does it.[/quote]

    So what makes those people uniquely qualified to judge? The fact that that they are elected to office gives them that special insight, how exactly? Also, how are those civilan masters who we elect to oversee our military in our stead to know our wishes about the general operation of the military if they keep everything away from us that might offend our frail sensibilities?

    Or maybe, just maybe, in a free society we the people do need to know what our military & police are doing to keep tyranny & a police state in restraints.
     

    dburkhead

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    No one is arguing for the release of top secret materials, at least insofar as they affect present operations. I do think they should be declassified ion a more timely basis than "when everyone involved on either side is dead", but that's just me.

    It's not as nicely divided as that. Back when I was in the AF, I attended a security briefing (one of those generally execrable training films). In the course of the film they proceeded to demonstrate how seemingly innocuous statements and bits of information could be put together to create an essentially complete description of a classified project. Although the events of the film were fictitious, I'm not going to go into detail mainly because it was decades ago and I don't remember the details. The gimmick was intercepting phone conversations (which can be done via picking up sidelobes from microwave relays, satellite downlinks, or, nowadays, listening to cell tower transmissions). The security check team was told to find everything they could on, call it "Sun dress."

    First message they picked up was:
    "We're really busy here, there's a new secret operation called Sun Dress."
    The "ignorant person" in the film then said, "What good is that? It doesn't tell you anything you didn't know before."
    "Instructor" comment, "Oh, but it does. We now know that it's classified Secret. That tells anyone listening that 'Sun Dress' is important. Anyone listening in would be on the alert for more references to 'Sun Dress' in the future."

    The film went on then, step by step, with seemingly innocuous statements made--most of which were violations of security procedures we were taught, it was a training film after all--until by the end of the film we, the audience (who had been given no more information about "Sun Dress" than the people in the film) knew in the entirety what "Sun Dress" was.

    There's a reason why any kind of details on anything in the military have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of people. Mistakes in security cost people's lives.

    If a Doctor makes the wrong mistake, a patient dies.
    If a General makes the wrong mistake, a nation dies.

    That's a question I have. I'd like to trust the military in that regard, but given the contempt shown toward civilians by some military members of this board (e.g., "shut the f*ck up"), I'm not so sure such trust would be well-placed.

    And given the contempt shown toward the military by many people--including those currently in power, how can you possibly expect any different.

    Incidentally, it's not being a civilian that generates that response. It's the armchair quarterbacking that draws ire.
     

    Fletch

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    Even I have contempt for some of us civilians who blast on service members. Not saying you were, but it was getting there.

    I respect members of the military, but I do not worship them. They are human beings like anyone else. They can be wrong, they can be assholes, they can be downright evil. They can also be wonderful people. Every individual stands on his own merit or falls on his own faults. I know guys who would make my short list of "people to have in a clinch", and I know guys who I wouldn't want anywhere near my family. I've lost dear friends in the military, to everything from enemy fire to suicide. And you know what? They're no different from civilians in that way.

    One thing I refuse to do, however, is to just give everyone in the military a free pass. I'm not going to hand you the keys to my house or the combination to my safe or the PIN to my ATM card just because "you've served". Sorry, all that means is that you chose a different career path. Sure, you might be God's own soldiers, but you might also be an adrenaline junkie who couldn't make it in NASCAR. And if they're honest, members of the military will admit that there are bad apples just as surely as there are good ones. It's not a bad thing to admit this, it doesn't mean that your service or the military as a whole is tarnished, it just means that government service does not turn people into angels. Sorry if that comes as a shock to some.
     

    SavageEagle

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    Finity-

    Wow. Apparently you think it's ok to allow terrorists to be captured, serve a few years, and let go huh? I'm sorry, but they tried and ARE TRYING to you me, and everyone else in America. Geneva Convention? Applies to those who are at war yes. They don't apply to combatants who know where the "bomb" is located and when it's about to go off. It does apply to prisoners of war, but the limitations aren't as strict as you think. Waterboarding is NOT torture. Please go back to the Waterboarding thread and not debate that here. My point is that these "abuses" were not abuses. The were well deserved ASS KICKINGS as they should have been strung up on the field of combat. But that's just me. Screw the GC. Common Criminals are not POWs. They fall under the law. While the military follows USCMJ and ROE, the law doesn't apply to those shooting at the troops of using IEDs against them or civilians.
     

    Spot Me 2

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    You seem to be forgetting that there are rules of war. Not only is there rules in the UCMJ but in a little thing called the Geneva Conventions.
    I have one ? for you. Who the Hell on the other side follows these Rules????

    Thats the whole problem. We can fight a war to win anymore. Someones feeling might get hurt.:rolleyes: It's called war for a reason. Its the ugliest thing man can do, but it is also a necessary evil. If you get into a fight, do you yell time out when you get kicked in the nuts? NO, you do whatever is necessary to end the conflict, so that YOU are the one who walks away.
    You need to take a step back, and decide who you want to win, because their will definately be a loser!!
     
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    dburkhead

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    In our increasingly surveillance-oriented society, it's pretty much an expectation that anything you do can and probably will be captured or documented in some fashion by random parties. Whether this is cause for concern is another debate; the fact is that anyone who wants to know anything about me probably doesn't have to dig very hard. The fact is though that I'm too boring for anyone to care enough to check me out.

    So just toss the 4th Amendment then? Maybe folk could find out most things about you with a little digging. Maybe the same is true about me. My response then is "so dig."

    All that's by the way of aside as you didn't actually answer the question. Is there really nothing in your life that you wouldn't prefer not be made public knowledge?
     

    Fletch

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    So just toss the 4th Amendment then? Maybe folk could find out most things about you with a little digging. Maybe the same is true about me. My response then is "so dig."

    All that's by the way of aside as you didn't actually answer the question. Is there really nothing in your life that you wouldn't prefer not be made public knowledge?

    Given that I've confessed all my sins (at least, the ones I know about) in front of various congregations, I don't think there's much left that could embarrass me any further. Sure, I'd rather they weren't the subject of casual conversation, but anyone who wants to know what they are need only ask around.

    The fact is, I know that I'm not a great or even a good or even a decent human being, especially by God's measure. I am a downright sorry piece of ****, and it is only the grace of God that keeps me from doing everyone a favor and checking out. Hearing that I've f*cked up in various ways doesn't surprise me anymore. I worry about those who think they haven't.
     

    dburkhead

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    One thing I refuse to do, however, is to just give everyone in the military a free pass. I'm not going to hand you the keys to my house or the combination to my safe or the PIN to my ATM card just because "you've served".

    Wait a minute. Why not? Didn't you just say that nothing good comes from covering things up? Why then would you want to cover up the comination to you safe or the pin to your ATM card?

    Sorry, all that means is that you chose a different career path.

    And that statement right there you demonstrate how little you know about the subject. What other career paths have the "ultimate liability clause" in their employment contracts? In the military you can literally be ordered on a "suicide mission"--we'll try our d@mndest to make it not a suicide mission, but if that's what's needed, that's what we're going to do--and be fully expected to go. And, no, despite what you see in the movies, these are rarely "call for volunteers" type things. If it's your turn to go, you go.

    What other employment field has the following code:
    1) I am an American fighting man. I serve in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
    2) I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender my men while they still have the means to resist.
    3) If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
    4) If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me, and will back them up in every way.
    5) When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am bound to give only name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies, or harmful to their cause.
    6) I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.


    Military service is not like other careers. What it means in the US is that one has to be willing to put one's buddies, one's country, and all the people like you ahead of one's own life.


    My one great regret is that when I went into the Military it was into a field that was the ultimate REMF (I had self confidence issues that prevented me from volunteering for something more active).


    "Just chose another career path" please!

    Sure, you might be God's own soldiers, but you might also be an adrenaline junkie who couldn't make it in NASCAR. And if they're honest, members of the military will admit that there are bad apples just as surely as there are good ones. It's not a bad thing to admit this, it doesn't mean that your service or the military as a whole is tarnished, it just means that government service does not turn people into angels. Sorry if that comes as a shock to some.

    We have a military of about 1.4 million people on active duty and about 800 thousand reserve and guard. Of course there are bad apples. Nobody has ever suggested otherwise.

    That's why there are groups like the Inspector Generals offices, CID (Army), OSI (AF--don't know what it is in the Navy and Marine Corps). That's why we have a Chain of Command so that everyone has someone they are responsible to. That's why we have the Uniform Code of Military Justice and Courts Martial.

    People like to bring up Abu Ghraib as some sort of failure on the military's part. Actually, it's an example of the system working. Some bad apples, which you'll have in any large organization, crossed the line. They were identified, investigated, tried, convicted, and punished. The. System. Worked.

    The Constitution guarantees one the right to a trial by a jury of one's peers. People in the military face situations, stresses, and challenges that people in the civilian world don't, and that civilians rarely comprehend. People in the military have responsibilities that civilians in general just don't have. In many ways mitliary personnel are held to a higher standard than civilians. (Try charging a civilian of the crime of "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline," "insubbordination," or "conduct unbecoming an officer.") That's why a Court Martial is tried with military personnel serving the function of the jury (oh, and when an enlisted person is on trial, the court must also include enlisted personnel). Neither you nor I is a peer of a serving military man.
     

    dburkhead

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    Originally Posted by finity


    You seem to be forgetting that there are rules of war. Not only is there rules in the UCMJ but in a little thing called the Geneva Conventions.
    I have one ? for you. Who the Hell on the other side follows these Rules????

    Thats the whole problem. We can fight a war to win anymore. Someones feeling might get hurt.:rolleyes: It's called war for a reason. Its the ugliest thing man can do, but it is also a necessary evil. If you get into a fight, do you yell time out when you get kicked in the nuts? NO, you do whatever is necessary to end the conflict, so that YOU are the one who walks away.
    You need to take a step back, and decide who you want to win, because their will definately be a loser!!

    I will also point out that people who invoke the Geneva Conventions in these discussions rarely understand what's in them.

    For example:
    - The Geneva Conventions explicitly state that Signatories of them are not bound by them when in conflict with nations that do not adhere to them.
    - The Geneva (and Hague--between the two of them comprising most of the recognized "laws of war") Conventions explicitly allow for reprisals for the other side "breaking" them. "Reprisals" are thing that would otherwise be a war crime but which are permitted in direct retaliation for war crimes committed by the other side.
    - The Geneva Conventions recognize two classes of "protected" persons--non-combatants and lawful combatants. Both of those have specific criteria that must be met for to fall into one of those categories. When someone meets neither set of criteria, they are an "unlawful combatant." In previous wars they were calles "spies" and "saboteurs" and were often shot out of hand. Some people make a big fuss about the conventions saying nothing about "unlawful" or "illegal" combatants, but that's for the simple reason that those individuals are not covered, are not protected, by the Geneva conventions. They only have the rights that we choose to extend them, at our sufferance.

    The Geneva and Hague conventions are like the Marquis of Queensbury rules: intended for contests where both sides adhere to the rules. That's fine if you're in the ring with an opponent who follows the rules and a referee who can award the fight to you if your opponent breaks the rules. But if you're in a back alley and attacked by a thug twice your size wielding a broken bottle, you'd better be prepared to take those gloves off and fight a little dirty if you're going to survive. If you're strong enough to do it you can try stand-up fighting first to see if your opponent will respond by playing by the rules. We are and we have. If the opponent continues to "fight dirty" then they have only themselves to blame if we decide to respond in kind.

    As I have seen said before: War doesn't decide who's right, war decide's who's left. It doesn't matter how "right" you are if you lose the war.

    The French at Crecy did not want to lose "honor" by fighting the way those English commoners did. Well, we all see what that got them.
     
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    BloodEclipse

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    In the trenches for liberty!
    There sure seem to be several "shut the hell up" comments. I guess people who don't agree with others' positions wholeheartedly and without reservation shouldn't voice alternate ideas?

    Perhaps we could all have a drink together and do without the bullying? :cheers:

    Ah, but therein lies the problem... if I'm not given the chance to see the evidence for myself, I have no idea whether or not I can stomach it. So you've essentially made the argument in favor of releasing the photos.


    I'm looking at the First Amendment in another window, and I don't see any place where it says "except for the weak". I've always been taught that one of the strengths of our society is that everyone has a voice and is free to use it. Were you sick that day?

    I see this in the same context as those who want to take away my ability to protect myself and those around me. Just because they may not want to protect themselves, they should not be trying to take away my ability to do so. So it is in that context I use the Shut the Hell up statement.

    Everyone will have a difference of opinion when it come to what abuse is and what torture is.
    To me the Abuse we have subjected these "TERRORIST SCUM" to is nothing more than humiliation.
    Torture to me is physical that is permanent. Removing limbs, cutting off body parts, pouring acid, busting skulls, ripping out fingernails. I do not consider hurting someones "FEELINGS" torture.
    I'm sick of the PC crowd telling us all how to act and if we act otherwise we are HATERS... I just HATE that.:D
     

    BloodEclipse

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    In the trenches for liberty!
    No one is arguing for the release of top secret materials, at least insofar as they affect present operations. I do think they should be declassified ion a more timely basis than "when everyone involved on either side is dead", but that's just me.

    In case you haven't noticed we are still fighting this enemy. Now is not a time to be releasing a "How to beat American interrogation methods handbook"
     
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