Do as I say, not as I do.... state legislators can carry where you can't

[Thegeek]

Just heard on the radio that the legislators will be allowed to carry in the State House building. I'm so sick of the hypocrisy.... you and I can't even walk on the grass outside.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Members of the legislature with a LTCH, judges, and LEO have all been able to carry there for a while. There is a new law that allows "professional staff" of the legislature and some others to do so as well. Here is a link to the bill. Yes the bill does include the legislators themselves, but they were already allowed to under IAC.
https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2017/bills/senate/43#document-dcfe771d

 

[MarkC]

With the judges and the legislators (members of the General Assembly, not the staff) it has been seen as a separation of powers issue. An executive branch rule could not be enforced against the separately-elected officials. For example, legislators were able to keep smoking in their offices in the statehouse for years after the executive order and rule banning smoking on the government center campus.

So, perhaps, look at this for what it is: one small step in the right direction?

 

[HoughMade]

I know that it is probably not a popular opinion here, but the more people carrying the better, in the end. What will be shown is that carnage did not break out just because additional people started carrying. Further, people of influence carrying can never be a bad thing for our cause.

The foes of freedom have incrementalism down. We have a tendency to reject anything that isn't 100% what we want. I think we should engage in a little incrementalism ourselves.

 

[MarkC]

I know that is is probably not a popular opinion here, but the more people carrying the better, in the end. What will be shown is that carnage did not break out just because additional people started carrying. Further, people of influence carrying can never be a bad thing for our cause.

The foes of freedom have incrementalism down. We have a tendency to reject anything that isn't 100% what we want. I think we should engage in a little incrementalism ourselves.

From years of doing legislative work in a former life, incrementalism and persistence works, at least when trying to pass legislation.

Ten years ago I would never have thought that commercial hemp growing and CBD oil (unless you're Curtis Hill) would be legal in Indiana. That is why the medical marijuana people keep coming back with bills in the legislature, year after year.

Also, it is important to remember that this is a long journey, not a sprint. Indiana has been very firearms friendly and is getting more so. Look at the relaxing of the need for an LTCH in 2011, the bring your gun to work (but leave it in the car), and other gun-friendly work done by recent, and not-so-recent General Assemblies. If CC does not pass this year, don't get angry and give up. Start preparing again for next year.

 

[halfmileharry]

I know that is is probably not a popular opinion here, but the more people carrying the better, in the end. What will be shown is that carnage did not break out just because additional people started carrying. Further, people of influence carrying can never be a bad thing for our cause.

The foes of freedom have incrementalism down. We have a tendency to reject anything that isn't 100% what we want. I think we should engage in a little incrementalism ourselves.

Agreed, just as long as we don't bend over TOO far with our cause.
Then again.... some can't be bargained with nor appeased.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I know that is is probably not a popular opinion here, but the more people carrying the better, in the end. What will be shown is that carnage did not break out just because additional people started carrying. Further, people of influence carrying can never be a bad thing for our cause.

The foes of freedom have incrementalism down. We have a tendency to reject anything that isn't 100% what we want. I think we should engage in a little incrementalism ourselves.

How many times need I yell at you using calm and reason here?

 

[2A_Tom]

I know that is is probably not a popular opinion here, but the more people carrying the better, in the end. What will be shown is that carnage did not break out just because additional people started carrying. Further, people of influence carrying can never be a bad thing for our cause.

The foes of freedom have incrementalism down. We have a tendency to reject anything that isn't 100% what we want. I think we should engage in a little incrementalism ourselves.

I agree completely, we gunowners need to stop being all or nothing and realize thatevery tiny step helps in the long run. Ajpurney of a thousand miles starts with a single step(on the gaspedal for me).


Every time I see this (below) it makes me cringe.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to HoughMade again.

It has been nearly a year since I've given anyone "actual" rep.

 

[MarkC]

I know that is is probably not a popular opinion here, but the more people carrying the better, in the end. What will be shown is that carnage did not break out just because additional people started carrying. Further, people of influence carrying can never be a bad thing for our cause.

The foes of freedom have incrementalism down. We have a tendency to reject anything that isn't 100% what we want. I think we should engage in a little incrementalism ourselves.

Agreed, just as long as we don't bend over TOO far with our cause.
Then again.... some can't be bargained with nor appeased.

Part of winning with incrementalism is don't let them make you take a step backward; only compromise by giving up part of what you're asking for. It is best not to give up what you already have.

Recent case in point: bump fire stocks. I think they are the dumbest thing, and would never own one myself. However, some members of the firearms community were very ready to give up on the bump stocks.

However, even that fervor seems to have died off, with Congress doing nothing and seeming to want to punt it back to the ATF, who have already opined they are not illegal.

 

[Thegeek]

So, perhaps, look at this for what it is: one small step in the right direction?

Never considered it in that perspective, but you're right.

 

[KellyinAvon]

From years of doing legislative work in a former life, incrementalism and persistence works, at least when trying to pass legislation.

Ten years ago I would never have thought that commercial hemp growing and CBD oil (unless you're Curtis Hill) would be legal in Indiana. That is why the medical marijuana people keep coming back with bills in the legislature, year after year.

Also, it is important to remember that this is a long journey, not a sprint. Indiana has been very firearms friendly and is getting more so. Look at the relaxing of the need for an LTCH in 2011, the bring your gun to work (but leave it in the car), and other gun-friendly work done by recent, and not-so-recent General Assemblies. If CC does not pass this year, don't get angry and give up. Start preparing again for next year.

keep matriculating the ball down the field!-- Hank Stram

 

[Alamo]

I know that it is probably not a popular opinion here, but the more people carrying the better, in the end. What will be shown is that carnage did not break out just because additional people started carrying. Further, people of influence carrying can never be a bad thing for our cause.

The foes of freedom have incrementalism down. We have a tendency to reject anything that isn't 100% what we want. I think we should engage in a little incrementalism ourselves.

This works as long as the proponents in the legislature keep incrementalizing (izzataword?), but problems creep in when the next increment no longer directly benefits the proponents/legislators and their most influential supporters. For example, it is not hard for legislators to see the bennies of being able to carry in their own hallowed halls, and yes maybe it's OK if their staffs carry, but Joe Hoosier off the street? Hey, that's who the metal detectors are protecting us from! Let's slow down and think about this...pass it to a committee...establish a working group in the off-season... Similarly, the denizens of the court room.

Texas law has a long list of special people who can either get LTCs free, can skip certain requirements, and/or can carry in special locations, because they are...well...special. These special cases, largely focused on members of the judicial classes, have been there for years, and particularly with respect to where one can carry on a license, extending this portion of 2A freedom to the masses has been rather limited. It was probably a necessary compromise from when licensed carry was first introduced in the 1990s. Increments have been in rather small slices since then, especially with respect to where one can carry. Campus carry (which really meant "carry in campus buildings") was the significant step forward, and that was two legislatures ago.

However, the last legislature did create a new special class of, er, specials, and I'm in it, so hey, I got mine I guess.

I am happy to report that the Texas legislature did see fit to make licensed carry legal throughout the Capitol, even when the Legislature is in session, when they installed metal detectors at the doors. In fact, there is a separate line if you have a Texas LTC, and it is much faster than the line for the masses. So much so that when the policy was instituted people who had never considered a LTC or even opposed them got them so they could get in the door faster.

 

[Vigilant]

I know that it is probably not a popular opinion here, but the more people carrying the better, in the end. What will be shown is that carnage did not break out just because additional people started carrying. Further, people of influence carrying can never be a bad thing for our cause.

The foes of freedom have incrementalism down. We have a tendency to reject anything that isn't 100% what we want. I think we should engage in a little incrementalism ourselves.

Recent history has show N that the powers that be will include themselves and forget about the rest. HR218 anyone? Mas Ayoob and many other LEO/celebs asked us to back them, and they in return would back nationwide reciprocity, where'd that get us?

 

[HoughMade]

Recent history has show N that the powers that be will include themselves and forget about the rest. HR218 anyone? Mas Ayoob and many other LEO/celebs asked us to back them, and they in return would back nationwide reciprocity, where'd that get us?

So you favor less people carrying?

My point is not that there will be some kind of quid pro quo, but rather the more people carrying the more "normal" it will be viewed and the more ridiculous the dire predictions of what will happen when more people carry will look. This, coupled with a relentless march for more freedom will work over time. It has​ worked over time.

 

[Denny347]

Recent history has show N that the powers that be will include themselves and forget about the rest. HR218 anyone? Mas Ayoob and many other LEO/celebs asked us to back them, and they in return would back nationwide reciprocity, where'd that get us?

Are LEO's not supporting nationwide reciprocity? Indiana already does.

 

[yeti rider]

I feel like the elected officials and the help will view this as a "we have and you can't type of situation. I think they will use the reasoning that they are a target, where the common man is not.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I know that it is probably not a popular opinion here, but the more people carrying the better, in the end. What will be shown is that carnage did not break out just because additional people started carrying. Further, people of influence carrying can never be a bad thing for our cause.

The foes of freedom have incrementalism down. We have a tendency to reject anything that isn't 100% what we want. I think we should engage in a little incrementalism ourselves.

You're never gonna sell your newsletter with this sort of attitude.

 

[Vigilant]

Are LEO's not supporting nationwide reciprocity? Indiana already does.

Rank and file for the most part, yes, other than that, no! Ayoob seems to have forgotten the quid pro quo portion of his and others’ pleas for support. I do agree that more people carrying will help to “normalize” things a bit, but the for me not for thee runs deep with this.

 

[amboy49]

I realize this is a little off target but I feel there is a parallel. Lebanon, In is where the Boone County courthouse is located. There used to be four completely accessible public entrances - one on each side of the bauilding. The sheriff decided that the courthouse can be a dangerous place so he requested and was granted permission to close off 3 of the public entrances and the remaining entrance now is where the newly acquired pass through body metal detector is located. Each public citizen is now required to enter and pass through the metal detector and surrender all guns, knives, land mines, claymores, M-79 grenade launchers, etc.

However, some folks are excluded and may still use a different entrance that is not available to the general public. Those persons include “known attorneys, known public officials, and ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT officers whether on duty or not.” So . . . . . . if you are a card carrying holder of a state issued LTCH, but not one of the heretofore prescribed elite, you must surrender your weapon(s) before entering the courthouse. The sheriff cited potential violence that MIGHT occur in the third floor family and divorce court room as rationale for taking this action. To best of my knowledge no such incidents of violence have been committed with a firearm. Nonetheless, Sheriff Nielsen saw fit to get out in front of any potential mayhem and subsequently convinced the county commissioners to enable the entrance restrictions and to pay for the equipment.

I should state that I am a Sheriff Nielsen fan and supporter, but I think he missed the mark on this one. Apparently there are some who are more equal under the law than others.

 

[halfmileharry]

I realize this is a little off target but I feel there is a parallel. Lebanon, In is where the Boone County courthouse is located. There used to be four completely accessible public entrances - one on each side of the bauilding. The sheriff decided that the courthouse can be a dangerous place so he requested and was granted permission to close off 3 of the public entrances and the remaining entrance now is where the newly acquired pass through body metal detector is located. Each public citizen is now required to enter and pass through the metal detector and surrender all guns, knives, land mines, claymores, M-79 grenade launchers, etc.

However, some folks are excluded and may still use a different entrance that is not available to the general public. Those persons include “known attorneys, known public officials, and ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT officers whether on duty or not.” So . . . . . . if you are a card carrying holder of a state issued LTCH, but not one of the heretofore prescribed elite, you must surrender your weapon(s) before entering the courthouse. The sheriff cited potential violence that MIGHT occur in the third floor family and divorce court room as rationale for taking this action. To best of my knowledge no such incidents of violence have been committed with a firearm. Nonetheless, Sheriff Nielsen saw fit to get out in front of any potential mayhem and subsequently convinced the county commissioners to enable the entrance restrictions and to pay for the equipment.

I should state that I am a Sheriff Nielsen fan and supporter, but I think he missed the mark on this one. Apparently there are some who are more equal under the law than others.

First off I want to state that I'm a big supporter of Law Enforcement Personnel. I don't have the demeanor or will to even think about doing their job. Thanks LEOs while I'm at it.
However, and I do understand where they come from, being able to remove threats before hand is in their best interests. I may be wrong but LEOs job is usually a reaction to law breakers. I don't like giving up ANY rights nor even have them "trimmed up" a little but I try to be reasonable for all concerned.
There's not going to be many "Perfect World" solutions but I'm laying low and trying to tolerate and survive.
IF the world messes up and SHTF I just want you to know I'm behind you. I'll make lemonade or something. Maybe donuts and coffee.