DNR Proposal for .243 and up rifle for deer season?

[hammer24]

Fudds, Fudds, everywhere....
Rifles will pose little to no additional threat to public safety than what we have now, the extensive PA game commission studies show that. The study actually shows that your good ole' foster slug from a shotgun has the most potential to cause unintended downrange damage, not a high velocity rifle bullet. As was said most hunting in this state is done from a tree so steep angle into dirt + high velocity projectile = bullet stops.
Even fired at shallow angles (like 0 degrees) the slug hits the ground and keeps on trucking, retaining as much as 90 percent of its energy. While the 30-06 dissipated almost all of its energy when striking ground, and once tumbling , the long skinny bullet lost energy much quicker than a slug or any of the muzzleloader bullets tested. Isn't physics great.

I believe this will happen eventually, despite the push back from farmers who think their cattle will all drop dead the moment the rule passes, and despite the fudds that believe their way should be the only way, because of course, it's the best way. Just like crossbows, there will be much out rage, nashing of teeth, and predictions of life as we know it ending at first, then.........crickets......because everything will be just fine.

 

[M4Madness]

Rifles will pose little to no additional threat to public safety than what we have now, the extensive PA game commission studies show that. The study actually shows that your good ole' foster slug from a shotgun has the most potential to cause unintended downrange damage, not a high velocity rifle bullet. As was said most hunting in this state is done from a tree so steep angle into dirt + high velocity projectile = bullet stops..

Exactly.

I'm actually very embarrassed to see the anti-gun posts in this thread on a pro-gun website. You guys are all for ownership of firearms, but then turn right around and want to restrict their usage. That's hypocritical in my opinion. You can already hunt deer with AR-15 rifles and pistols in certain calibers, so the whole semi-auto, high-capacity magazine argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. And further more, if some idiot is stupid enough to take dozens of potshots across a huge field at deer, they'll most certainly do the same thing regardless of what firearm is in their hands. Do you folks so soon forget that the same arguments were employed with PCR's when they were first proposed, and that none of the horrifying things predicted have occurred since they were legalized?

 

[snapping turtle]

I forgot my 257 Roberts or old bob has not been shot in 10 years. It might get opening day duties if this is passed.

I got got one heck of a deal on it in the day and have only shot it twice at the range. Or if I am going to hunt a field my 25-06 might go. Single shot and so heavy that I would never have thought of it till now. It will get out and touch something for sure. Going to be fun.

 

[Hookeye]

Backcountry hilly wooded and open ground mix...........big deer.
Had plenty of bullet skip and fly by issues back in the slug gun era.
Oh, also some rifle bullets.

I don't think this any deer gun issue. It's a people issue and a lot of people today suck.
And too many of our generation aint too friggin' sharp or safe either.

Been behind the gun counter, and on many ranges............sure there will be benefits to the good guys, using regular rifles.

But to say there will be no negatives IMHO is just boolsheet.

I've met enough dumbarse Hoosiers on the web and in person.

 

[Hookeye]

If we do go HP rifle will I use one?
Why not?
My only hunting spot where they would be of advantage -a windswept brutally cold chunk of open ground.
Plenty of rifle users up there already................so many the DNR tried the robo deer trying to catch them a few yrs back.

 

[tetsujin79]

I've got a family hand down 30-30 that took deer in Michigan a long, long time ago (1941 Win. 94). Would love to use it again! Come on DNR!!!

If you have idiots shooting from the road near your home, call the local PD or county & DNR. My dad used to phone harass the county about dumb kids on dirt bikes & snow mobiles on the roads and in his yard (south Lake county). Yeah, it was a pita, but they finally cracked down. It's your taxes, use the money.

 

[beehunter]

I have no problem at all with the legalization of high powered rifles. I was one of the gloom and doomers when crossbows were legalized and thought it was going to overcrowd and ruin the bow season with inexperienced hunters setting in every tree during the early bow season. I will admit I was wrong and I am even planning on hunting with a crossbow this year or next and I highly suspect all the hunters gripping and complaining about legalizing center fire rifles will be the first ones to hunt with a .243 or 30-06.

 

[dnurk]

Fudds, Fudds, everywhere....
Rifles will pose little to no additional threat to public safety than what we have now, the extensive PA game commission studies show that. The study actually shows that your good ole' foster slug from a shotgun has the most potential to cause unintended downrange damage, not a high velocity rifle bullet. As was said most hunting in this state is done from a tree so steep angle into dirt + high velocity projectile = bullet stops.
Even fired at shallow angles (like 0 degrees) the slug hits the ground and keeps on trucking, retaining as much as 90 percent of its energy. While the 30-06 dissipated almost all of its energy when striking ground, and once tumbling , the long skinny bullet lost energy much quicker than a slug or any of the muzzleloader bullets tested. Isn't physics great.

I believe this will happen eventually, despite the push back from farmers who think their cattle will all drop dead the moment the rule passes, and despite the fudds that believe their way should be the only way, because of course, it's the best way. Just like crossbows, there will be much out rage, nashing of teeth, and predictions of life as we know it ending at first, then.........crickets......because everything will be just fine.

I would argue that the vast majority of weekend warrior gun season hunters absolutely do not use tree stands. The vast majority that I have seen hunting public land in 30 years of indiana deer hunting walk in as first light is coming up and sit up against a tree in an area that they have not scouted. And by the way, they don't like to climb hills so they walk the valleys and creek bottoms and absolutely do shoot up the ridge tops (again..I've with messed it year after year of hunting private ground that borders state land).

 

[spaniel]

You guys are all for ownership of firearms, but then turn right around and want to restrict their usage.

I keep seeing lines like this and it gets tired. OK, so let's let the guy on the other side of a wooden fence from your backyard target shoot towards your property with a high powered rifle and no backstop. By your logic only an anti-gunner would want to restrict the way he uses his gun.

I've also read the PA study front-to-back...they studied a single cartridge and a single bullet type. Anyone with any real experience looking into what bullets do down-range knows that bullet type can dramatically affect the chances of a ricochet. It is far, FAR from a definitive study, and you people using it cherry-pick the one scenario in which the rifle round did not out-travel the slug. In most scenarios, the rifle went further.

I've been present when rounds fired from a 300WM impacting at a shallow angle on plowed, soft ground traveled 1.5 miles down-range. The shooter had found their Remington Core-Lokts a reasonable distance behind the target, but then started shooting different bullets (Accubonds and Match Kings, if I recall) and they took off. Those claiming high-velocity bullets always tumble and don't travel are not speaking for experience or real information.

 

[M4Madness]

It's nothing more than fear mongering. I'm sure that your chances are greater of being struck by lightning than being struck by a stray bullet while hunting. I've been deer hunting 20 years on both both public and private ground, and small game hunting for at least 30 years, and do not recall a single instance where a projectile buzzed past my head. Sure, it happens, but it's a rare occurrence. When high-powered handguns and wildcat PCR's are allowed for deer, as well as high-powered rifles for varmints and target shooting, you may as well include everything over .243" for deer.

I'm a bowhunter first and foremost, but see absolutely no reason why high-powered rifles should not be legalized for deer.

 

[Hookeye]

I have yet to have a lightning bolt hit near me while hunting.
That other stuff? Half dozen times at least.
In all instances it was somebody who wasn't supposed to be there (either on the private ground I was hunting, or next to it).

 

[Willie]

Fear is the last thing that some have against this proposal - whatever it is. Same thing when PCR proposal came out .

M4M,

The person you are discussing "what is a real hunter" on HH tried to stop PCRs by spreading fear with every politician he could - fed, state and local . He said he was going to enlist as many "soccer moms" as he could find to stop "rifles" from being introduced into Indiana deer hunting.

It didn't work thankfully...

 

[parson]

I remember those meetings leading up to PCR's being approved. Crazy statements about "30 round clips", that must have been handed out on a sheet of talking points. The much ballyhooed blood bath never materialized; it wont with the inclusion of other calibers either.

Also, I'm old enough to remember the introduction of compound bows. Similar rhetoric about unfair advantage, decimating the deer herd, true sportsmen would never use such a thing, etc.

 

[spaniel]

I'm sure that your chances are greater of being struck by lightning than being struck by a stray bullet while hunting. I've been deer hunting 20 years on both both public and private ground, and small game hunting for at least 30 years, and do not recall a single instance where a projectile buzzed past my head.

Then count yourself lucky, many of us are not so fortunate. Just a couple years ago the guy hunting nearest me had 2 rounds put through the tree a few feet over his head by the yahoos who hunt the next property south and pop off greater than forty rounds out of an 80 acre plot before lunch on opening day.

Getting stuck by lightning is rare but you don't walk out in an open field and hold a golf club aloft either. People don't just dismiss small risks.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why high power rounds are allowed for coyotes and varmints but not deer. The hunter density during those seasons is a tiny fraction of what it is the first weekend of deer season; it's really a very logical and well-thought alternative to all-out banning rifles for hunting as some places do. Same in reverse for PCRs, there are only a very small number of the wildcats in the field which approach the capabilities of typical rifle rounds.

 

[Bounty Hunter]

Exactly.

I'm actually very embarrassed to see the anti-gun posts in this thread on a pro-gun website. You guys are all for ownership of firearms, but then turn right around and want to restrict their usage. That's hypocritical in my opinion. You can already hunt deer with AR-15 rifles and pistols in certain calibers, so the whole semi-auto, high-capacity magazine argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. And further more, if some idiot is stupid enough to take dozens of potshots across a huge field at deer, they'll most certainly do the same thing regardless of what firearm is in their hands. Do you folks so soon forget that the same arguments were employed with PCR's when they were first proposed, and that none of the horrifying things predicted have occurred since they were legalized?

It may seem hypocritical until you have had to hit the dirt, because someone is shooting 300 yards right at you.

Years ago I kicked up about ten deer directly from under my stand one afternoon. I was hunting the edge of the woods, by a small swamp. Just as I stepped into the woods, the deer jumped up and ran around me on both sides towards the road. Just as I turned, I heard a gun go off. A local farmer, who at that time cruised the backroads, looking for these opportunities, opened fire from the window of his truck. He was sitting right next to mine, as he shot.

I heard the bullets whizzing and smacking the brush just yards from me, and had to hit the dirt. He missed everyone. Granted this is just one guy, but back then we had several road hunters, and "city folk", who trespassed and shot up everything in sight. I knew this particular person, who I visited shortly after this incident. He did not cruise that particular road after that.

That aside, I can see both sides to this. I have a 30-30 hanging on the wall for ten years in anticipation of it becoming legal to take deer. On the flip side.........urban cowboy shooters, adrenaline, and getting caught up in the moment could cause some issues with big caliber guns. Most people are very safe, and watch there shots, but I have seen several shoot blindly at deer, some people cannot control the adrenaline rush. A young kid hunting the woods behind us one year, shot a doe....four times. still did not kill it, knocked it down. He then comes running and screaming toward us saying he shot the deer. We dispatched the deer, for him, and I then went and talked to his Dad, who had dropped him off on the other side of the woods. Damn glad he only had a shotgun, because he blindly fired our way when this deer did not go down. Not that a shotgun is any less lethal.

Will there be mass incidents with larger caliber guns? Probably not, but I do have reservations about it.

 

[avboiler11]

One would think Kentucky, which has allowed modern centerfire rifles 22 caliber or greater for whitetail deer for DECADES, would have the exact same safety issues discussed in this thread (and every thread just like this over the entirety of my INGO membership).

Except that Kentucky doesn't have these safety issues.

Why is that?

 

[Bounty Hunter]

One would think Kentucky, which has allowed modern centerfire rifles 22 caliber or greater for whitetail deer for DECADES, would have the exact same safety issues discussed in this thread (and every thread just like this over the entirety of my INGO membership).

Except that Kentucky doesn't have these safety issues.

Why is that?

The terrain has some to do with it and why they are legal, I am sure. Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Southern Indiana, Ohio, there are a lot more hills than up here in Northern Indiana. Up here, some of the woods a pretty small with a lot of housing nearby. You have to be very aware of where you are shooting. I have let several big bucks walk because they came out on the wrong side of me and got in between me and a farmhouse that always had kids out in the yard. Could I "have" shot in that direction? Probably. Never would though, which is part of why I got to hunt there. In reality the slug would have never made it that far, but would not take the chance.

I do not think anyone is saying there will be mass casualties if this changes, but concerns.

I know the first time I put a .44 mag on my hip, the guys I hunted with, did not want to be anywhere around. They were afraid it would travel farther. The only issues were dead deer, but I understood the initial reaction.

 

[M4Madness]

Fear is the last thing that some have against this proposal - whatever it is. Same thing when PCR proposal came out .

M4M,

The person you are discussing "what is a real hunter" on HH tried to stop PCRs by spreading fear with every politician he could - fed, state and local . He said he was going to enlist as many "soccer moms" as he could find to stop "rifles" from being introduced into Indiana deer hunting.

Yes, I remember. In fact, I saved one of his comments from all those years ago on my hard drive for future reference:

I have been very careful in my presentation of these issues to the public, which includes all aspects of government, social organizations and individuals at large. Having said that, I don't believe it is inappropriate to simply ask homeowner associations, various governmental agencies and various influential individuals if they think that rifles, especially those will multiple round capability, should be allowed throughout Indiana, without concern for population density, landscape environment and general demographics. To simply ask them if they believe it is appropriate or if they would support the introduction of these rifles to be used for deer hunting, to be used in the woodlots next to their homes, potentially by youth under the age of 15 years old, is not an unfair question.

 

[M4Madness]

It may seem hypocritical until you have had to hit the dirt, because someone is shooting 300 yards right at you.

What you guys fail to understand is that caliber has NO bearing on incidents such as this. It'll happen with whatever the idiot has in his grubby paws. At least a high-powered rifle round will probably not "bust brush" like a heavy shotgun slug. Heck, maybe we had better ban the .22LR for squirrel hunting while we are at it:

Because a .22 LR bullet is less powerful than larger cartridges, its danger to humans is often underestimated. In fact, a .22 LR bullet is capable of inflicting very serious injuries (e.g. the four people wounded during the Reagan assassination attempt) or death e.g. the Kauhajoki school shooting (11 killed and one wounded), the Jokela school shooting (eight killed and one wounded), or the 1979 Cleveland Elemetary School shooting (two killed and nine wounded), as well as the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy. Numerous other shooting incidents have demonstrated that .22 LR bullets can easily kill or seriously injure humans. Even after flying 400 yd (370 m), a .22 bullet is still traveling about 500 ft/s (150 m/s). Ricochets are more common in .22 LR projectiles than for more powerful cartridges as the combination of unjacketed lead and moderate velocities allows the projectile to deflect – not penetrate or disintegrate – when hitting hard objects at a glancing angle. A .22 LR can ricochet off the surface of water at a low angle of aim. Severe injury may result to a person or object in the line of fire on the opposite shore, several hundred yards away.

I'm more fearful of a squirrel hunter shooting a .22LR at a high angle up into trees than I am of some guy shooting a rifle at deer.

I'd put money on this proposal passing. I was told five years ago that within five years we'd be using .243" or larger for deer, and it certainly looks like it is coming to pass right on time. That's why I haven't bought a .358 wildcat. Most deer hunters have dreamed of this moment for decades, so there won't be enough opposition to stop the proposal like there was when there was talk of shortening and moving the firearms season. That is the only issue that I personally remember that failed to pass after introduction. 99% of the time, when something is proposed by the DNR, it passes. This is all just a formality.

 

[avboiler11]

The terrain has some to do with it and why they are legal, I am sure.

There are PLENTY of states, and regions of states, with topography similar to the northern 3/5 of Indiana that allow modern centerfire rifles for deer without issue.

Western Kentucky is as flat as northern Indiana and has a history of producing B&C bucks meaning lots of hunting pressure...and again...no safety issues there.

The "initial reaction" you speak of is little more than fear. While the reasoning behind that fear can be understood, it does not change its irrationality.

I mean, you could have a tree branch fall on you while hunting just as readily as being hit by a stray bullet from a 30-06 but do people worry about that possibility?