DNR Clarification, whats legal and whats not

[451_Detonics]

FIFY, and I believe you.

don't make fun of the people who invented the toothbrush (anywhere else and it would have been called the teethbrush)

 

[Colt]

I stand corrected on that. I looked at a few ballistics charts and found that the two are fairly close.
On the Hornady site a .357 Magnum 140 grain Lever...whatever has a few ft. lbs. of kinetic energy more than the Hornady .30 Carbine 110 grain FTX. Both are somewhere between 650 and 700 ft. lbs.
It's been my experiance that .30 Carbine premium ammo can be difficult to find. I do still have a small stash of Speer Gold Dot .30 carbine ammo set aside.
Jack O'Conner recommended a minimum of 1,300 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy for whitetail deer. There are much better bullets now than when he wrote that.

The 357 Magnum muzzle energy data I see on the Hornady web site is for an 8" vented barrel. I believe my hand loaded 180 gr. XTPs in a carbine length barrel are more like 1200 ft/lb, way above the .30 Carbine in a carbine length barrel.

 

[DWS]

I'm thrilled that I can use my dads BLR this season but I was also hoping to break out gramps 250 Savage. If only it had been chambered in the 300 instead I'd have been set for both...

Beggers can't be choosers I guess...

 

[Yeah]

You energy people are a deep well of continuing hilarity.

 

[Flinttim]

I am interested to see a full detail of the regulation that comes out.

I don't like the fact they name 45-70 as an excluded cartridge. Since they are expressly excluded, I would be nervous about using mine even though I trim the cases down.

The new rifle additions do not change the pistol caliber rifles now legal. Your 45 Libertarians are still legal as a pistol cartridge. They "excluded" the 45-70 as a hi power centerfire rifle cartridge.

 

[M4Madness]

Hrmmmmmmm...the plot thickens.

Here's a direct quote from the DNR about permissible handgun cartridges used for deer:

Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least 4 inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long. Full metal-jacketed bullets are not permitted. The handgun must not be a rifle that has a barrel less than 18 inches or be designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder.

Handguns are not permitted on any military areas.

Some handgun cartridges that are legal for deer hunting include .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .35 Remington and .357 Herrett.

Some handgun cartridges that are illegal for deer hunting are .38 Special, .38 Smith and Wesson, .38 Colt New Police, .38/200, .38 Long Colt, .38 Super, .38 ACP, .38 Colt Auto, .45 ACP, .45 Automatic and .45 Auto Rim. All .25/.20, .32/.20 and .30 carbine ammunition is prohibited.

The designations of what is legal and what is not for handguns directly contradict that last part in bold regarding .30 Carbine.
In fact, all of the cartridges listed as illegal with the .30 Carbine are automatically disqualified because they don't meet the 1.16" requirement, yet the Carbine is 1.29".
I'm calling that one an error, because the regulation as written doesn't exclude a specific caliber that meets the minimum bullet diameter and case length requirements.

The .32-20 Winchester meets the pistol requirements, but is prohibited as well by name.

 

[17 squirrel]

You energy people are a deep well of continuing hilarity.

Don't you have Windows to clean volcanic ash off ?

 

[Cerberus]

Gents,

The DNR could NOT change the law as written and passed... They had to go with exactly what the legislators passed. They could not add to or delete anything. Thus the mixed bag. This is what you get when you have politicians involved in game rule making...


,

Well the law as written and passed listed 5 chambering by name, or at least the final wording that was submitted for signature as posted on the legislatures page had it as such. Since the DNR included many more not specifically called out leads me to think they could have added all the bore sizes between. I will call this part a little bureaucratic facetiousness.


Like others have pointed out, I won't complain too much. At least it's a move in the right direction.

 

[oldpink]

The .32-20 Winchester meets the pistol requirements, but is prohibited as well by name.

Right you are.
How strange that the regulation as written so glaringly contradicts itself with .30 Carbine and .32-20.
Not that I would have even bothered with using a handgun in either caliber if I had one, but I bet a CO would have a really tough time getting an infraction to stick with that contradiction.
There just aren't that many folks out there with one of the Smith & Wesson M&Ps in .32-20 or a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine.

 

[whiteoak]

Looks to me like the DNR is a little Buthurt over the new law and is just going to throw it's hands up and call any .243 and .308-.311 caliber legal in an attempt to embarrass the legislature over not adding the "win" to each caliber. I would guess the 303 brit should be legal as well as I have found many factory bullets for it are .311 the same bullet diameter used for the 7.62x54 and 7.62x39. Not much sense in a bullet company having a press cups set up for .311 and .312 they may say they are different but in practice they are the same diameter.

 

[03A3]

I'm thrilled that I can use my dads BLR this season but I was also hoping to break out gramps 250 Savage. If only it had been chambered in the 300 instead I'd have been set for both...

Beggers can't be choosers I guess...

Some important info I left out of that post is that is rifle data at 100 yards. Jack O'Conner was talking about kinetic energy at the deer, whether it was 30 yards away, or 300 yards.
The .357 Mag has the advantage of heavier bullets, higher retained weight, greater sectional density, and a larger frontal area.

I quoted the wrong person. It's been a long day........................

 

[Flinttim]

Anyone besides me think this whole thing was already "baked into the cake " before it even hit Pence's desk ? 5 specific (well one was a bit vague) cartridges were listed in the bill and two weeks after signing (was it even two weeks ?) the DNR comes out with a very comprehensive list of cartridges that are legal ? I'm calling BS on this one. We were told of a "correction day" for the bill sometime in June and then POOF! this list comes out. I'm betting there was a wink wink, nod nod somewhere between the DNR and the leigislature on this one. Government NEVER works this fast.

 

[avboiler11]

There were never "5 specific cartridges", despite there being 5 numerical identifiers.

That may have been the intent, but it wasn't how the bill was worded....and words matter. Legislators know that.

Leaving the make/specifier off each of the enumerated 5 was either purposeful or negligent. Either way, without a technical correction that may or may not have happened, DNR was bound by the words in the bill as signed by Pence though they did go a step further - they took it to mean any chambering using (for example) a .243 bullet instead of only a chambering beginning with 243.

It was the most open, liberal interpretation of the bill's language that they could have taken.

I don't think anybody should be complaining about that - it was the very best possible outcome from a flawed yet forward-moving bill.

 

[Flinttim]

I'm not complaining. I'm OK with it. I'm just saying this took place awfully fast.I guess what I'm saying is I think someone at DNR had a heads up this was coming and put together the specifics. It just happened too fast. Just a couple days after the bill was laid on Pence's desk (and he did not sign it for several days) we were hearing from both sides all about this "Correction Days" and how it would take place in June if at all and then just two days ago we have this. I'm just saying this whole thing was not nearly as nebulous as we believed from the git go.

 

[RMC]

I think it would have been a lot easier to simply read what other States allow for rifle calibers and use them. I'd rather see deer taken with a 270, 25-06, 257 Robers, or a 7mm before allowing 300 blackout or 30 carbines. I can only hope hunters use their heads and don't ruin it for the rest of us.

 

[DWS]

Anyone besides me think this whole thing was already "baked into the cake " before it even hit Pence's desk ? 5 specific (well one was a bit vague) cartridges were listed in the bill and two weeks after signing (was it even two weeks ?) the DNR comes out with a very comprehensive list of cartridges that are legal ? I'm calling BS on this one. We were told of a "correction day" for the bill sometime in June and then POOF! this list comes out. I'm betting there was a wink wink, nod nod somewhere between the DNR and the leigislature on this one. Government NEVER works this fast.

I'm not complaining. I'm OK with it. I'm just saying this took place awfully fast.I guess what I'm saying is I think someone at DNR had a heads up this was coming and put together the specifics. It just happened too fast. Just a couple days after the bill was laid on Pence's desk (and he did not sign it for several days) we were hearing from both sides all about this "Correction Days" and how it would take place in June if at all and then just two days ago we have this. I'm just saying this whole thing was not nearly as nebulous as we believed from the git go.

With respect to all parties involved and a government employee myself... Its not as if they (DNR) had no idea this was happening. Hell - we all have been chatting about this since well before last Deer Season even ended. I would certainly hope that if their wasn't any communication between the two that at least someone in the DNR had their head out of their ass and knew they needed to prepare for the inevitable.

 

[DWS]

I think it would have been a lot easier to simply read what other States allow for rifle calibers and use them. I'd rather see deer taken with a 270, 25-06, 257 Robers, or a 7mm before allowing 300 blackout or 30 carbines. I can only hope hunters use their heads and don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Right... I would have preferred to see a few more "traditional" cartridges in the list myself. It simply doesn't make sense to allow the 30-30 but the 32 Special is off the table? Its just odd.

 

[ghitch75]

ok i can us my AK with 75rd drum

but i wonder why i can't use a 8mmx57mm Mauser?....not on the list....it is bigger than a .243 and longer than 1.6?????

 

[Flinttim]

Too much bullet diameter. 1.6" is the minimum length

 

[ghitch75]

Too much bullet diameter. 1.6" is the minimum length

.311????.....only .011 over?......57mm = 2.244" is plenty over 1.6".......very very close to a 30 06......makes no sense to to me