Constitutional Amendment Banning Abortion

[Annie Oakley]

With today's technology, "life of the mother" shouldn't every be a concern with the options we have.

Do you have any idea of how many women die in childbirth or from the complications of a pregnancy? Sure, it is much better than it used to be but how do you choose one life over the other and not call letting a woman die anything but murder given your other statements?


If we're going to worry about the environment the children may live in, let's fix society so we reduce the chances, not make excuses so more people can do it.

Don't expect to live in that world any time soon. If you have the fix you need to share it because we could all do with improvements like that.

As far as the "rape and incest" goes, two wrong's don't make a right -- period. People everyday live with the consequences of the actions of others. Why should this be any different?

This is so basic to the rights of women that leaves me with my mouth hanging open. How about you living with and raising the child of a man who raped your wife? Until men are raped and become pregnant I don't think you really have the right to judge this.

There isn't any good answer to any of this. People are going to disagree. I truly wish there wasn't a need for abortion at all but people will have their reason's and if it isn't legal desperate women will seek out ways to do it and there will be more death. Maybe that is ok with some of you but it isn't for me.

We also need to realize that not everyone believes in religious writings or that there even is a god so using your beliefs to control another's life is no different than me saying I want to tear up the Constitution because I don't believe in it.

It is good to see that people are able to be open about how they feel but, like I said, I don't see any one converting any one else to their way of thinking.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Your wife was lucky that you were a stand-up guy. Lots of males aren't.

FTFY. A guy like that may be male, but he's no man.

 

[bigg cheese]

I didn't say you had to believe it, but I'm sticking to my guns on this.

"How about you living with and raising the child of a man who raped your wife?"

I will tell you that I have used just such a scenario before when thinking through what I believe. Let me share it with you.

Imagine for a moment that a husband and wife are the last two people alive (or so you think) on an island. A man shows up in a boat asking for assistance. He brings with him a 3-year old child. While the husband is away, the man forces himself on the wife with the child looking on. Before the husband can return, the rapist flees, leaving the child behind. Every time the wife looks at the child, it makes her think of him and she shrieks in terror. Would the husband be right to "abort" the baby, just to make her feel better?

It is good to see that people are able to be open about how they feel but, like I said, I don't see any one converting any one else to their way of thinking.

Probably not, but it doesn't make my way any less better...

 

[cce1302]

Abortion is murder and should be included in all applicable murder laws. I really don't care how it gets done as long as it becomes a crime. The pro-murder arguments don't hold water. I've been there. I've been through an unplanned pregnancy where I didn't know how I would take care of a wife let alone a baby. Now we are doing just fine. Murder was never an option. I'm not that selfish.

Me too.

Something I have always held close to my heart. I will never support the murder of children. The Bible says that He formed us in the womb and that we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

With today's technology, "life of the mother" shouldn't every be a concern with the options we have.

Let me also note the statistics on abortion. Very few people (even liberal family of mine) have an idea just how many we've murdered. Not to diminish the holocaust, but we've "achieved" 49+ million abortions a year within the United States.

Abortion in the United States

If we're going to worry about the environment the children may live in, let's fix society so we reduce the chances, not make excuses so more people can do it.

As far as the "rape and incest" goes, two wrong's don't make a right -- period. People everyday live with the consequences of the actions of others. Why should this be any different?

right.

Do you have any idea of how many women die in childbirth or from the complications of a pregnancy? Sure, it is much better than it used to be but how do you choose one life over the other and not call letting a woman die anything but murder given your other statements?

Do you know how many babies die because abortion is legal? I bet it's more than the number of women in the US that die in childbirth. Sure, making abortion illegal won't save all of the babies, but I bet it would save most of them. My wife's former doctor told her to abort our daughter, Allison. That's why he's her former doctor. Allison is healthy and will be 1 year old next tuesday. My wife had serious health problems during the pregnancy, but she's doing fine now, too.

This is so basic to the rights of women that leaves me with my mouth hanging open.

how is it a basic right to end someone else's life?

How about you living with and raising the child of a man who raped your wife? Until men are raped and become pregnant I don't think you really have the right to judge this.

by your "logic," until you've been aborted, you have no right to judge abortion

There isn't any good answer to any of this. People are going to disagree. I truly wish there wasn't a need for abortion at all but people will have their reason's and if it isn't legal desperate women will seek out ways to do it and there will be more death. Maybe that is ok with some of you but it isn't for me.

seriously? Are you saying there will be more than a million deaths a year due to outlawing abortion? There are more than a million abortion deaths a year now because abortion is legal.

We also need to realize that not everyone believes in religious writings or that there even is a god so using your beliefs to control another's life is no different than me saying I want to tear up the Constitution because I don't believe in it.
It is good to see that people are able to be open about how they feel but, like I said, I don't see any one converting any one else to their way of thinking.

"Religious writings" and God out of the picture, the little guy in the sonogram, even at 8-10-12 weeks, is still a tiny person with the same makeup as everybody else.

 

[kingnereli]

I've been thinking about this a little more and would like to add something. You can tell a lot about a society by how it treats it most vulnerable members(unborn, elderly, disabled, etc.) This issue become more clear if you take the time to put yourself in the category of "undesirable." We aren't too far off from a society where the wisdom of the elderly is no longer valued.

For example. GOV. LAMM ASSERTS ELDERLY, IF VERY ILL, HAVE 'DUTY TO DIE' - Free Preview - The New York Times

This is the most fundamental of human rights we are talking about; life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Pursuing our own happiness is only possible if we have the freedom to do so. Liberty is not possible without life. All other human rights a predicated on the the right just to be alive.

Your wife was lucky that you were a stand-up guy. Lots of men aren't.

Thank you.

FTFY. A guy like that may be male, but he's no man.

Can you explain this comment?

 

[henktermaat]

As a moral person of faith, I probably despise abortions more than the rest of you. I bet I spend more money saving these kids' lives in one year than most of you put into your guns in your lifetime. In other words, in all humility, I put my money where my mouth is.

That said,
I'd vote against an amendment... because that's not what our constitution is for.

Get the Govt out completely. They shouldn't make a statement on this ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. Leave it to the states.

For example: I would support an Indiana ban on abortion.

 

[Bill of Rights]

FTFY. A guy like that may be male, but he's no man.

Can you explain this comment?

Sure. A male who stands in defense of his family, who stands for those things in which he believes, one who does the right thing to the best of his ability, I am willing to call a man. It's kind of like that T shirt: "Any man can be a father, but it takes someone special to be a Daddy."

In short, I was complimenting you.

I do not like abortion. I do not agree with abortion. I do, however, understand as I said upthread that some women, given the CHOICE may choose to end their pregnancies. Others will choose to carry theirs to term. Which decision at which they arrive is not for any but the pregnant woman and her partner to decide, especially when we cannot trust those who would otherwise make the decision (politicians) to even handle their own lives with forthrightness and dignity.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[kingnereli]

Sure. A male who stands in defense of his family, who stands for those things in which he believes, one who does the right thing to the best of his ability, I am willing to call a man. It's kind of like that T shirt: "Any man can be a father, but it takes someone special to be a Daddy."

In short, I was complimenting you.

I do not like abortion. I do not agree with abortion. I do, however, understand as I said upthread that some women, given the CHOICE may choose to end their pregnancies. Others will choose to carry theirs to term. Which decision at which they arrive is not for any but the pregnant woman and her partner to decide, especially when we cannot trust those who would otherwise make the decision (politicians) to even handle their own lives with forthrightness and dignity.

Blessings,
Bill

Gotcha. Thanks.

 

[paddling_man]

bc, cce, and king: This is relatively on topic...

How do you feel about birth control? Not "abortion as birth control" but birth control as in contraceptives. Condoms, The Pill, sponge, diaphram (they still use those?) whatever? The Roman Catholic Church puts most of that as tantamount to abortion. They believe this is effectively terminating that potential life by spilled seed / wasted egg, what have you. Sex above and beyond the need (or at least potential) of initiating a pregnancy which holds through fruition to a birth. Sex without that possibility is selfish and not part of God's will, so the Roman Catholic Church seems to believe.

Is it as bad to separate the sperm and egg? Is it bad at all? You've made no sacrifice... you've celebrated your love or satisfied your lust, depends on the individual or occasion I suppose, but God's will would be a pregnancy and birth from that coupling. A life that you prevented through that thin wall of latex. Right?

The life of a child is sacred - you'll find nearly unanimous agreement in that. The rub is where all groups of faith and secular alike begin to define "life." Some say intervention beforehand to prevent a pregnancy though still have sex, others before viability outside of the womb, even others through the horror of partial birth / brain scrambling. The range within this scale is a difficult thing to embrace.

(Add to this mix the "morning after pill." I believe it works by not allowing the fertilized human egg - oocyte - to not stick to the uterine wall. It is at the single or dual cell stage. Dual Nuclei Cell pictured below.)

For what it is worth, I wouldn't consider an abortion. We have two wonderful children. We had our children in our thirties after 7 good, and sometimes trying , years of marriage. The kids are now 5 and 8 and, yes, we are a four-person family. If voting, and not making the choice for our own family, then my views fall somewhere in the middle - I wouldn't vote for late-term, partial birth but neither would I make the morning-after pill illegal.

Would you make birth control illegal based on your personal religious beliefs?

I do not like abortion. I do not agree with abortion. I do, however, understand as I said upthread that some women, given the CHOICE may choose to end their pregnancies. Others will choose to carry theirs to term. Which decision at which they arrive is not for any but the pregnant woman and her partner to decide, especially when we cannot trust those who would otherwise make the decision (politicians) to even handle their own lives with forthrightness and dignity.

Blessings,
Bill

+1

 

[kingnereli]

paddling_man,

You make some good points and I can only respond with my view on things. I can't equate preventing life with destroying it. Therefore, birth control that prevents fertilization I am ok with. I see no logical or biblical conflict. As far as the morning after pill and other means that prevent implantation of an embryo to the uterine wall are equal to abortion. It is another way to destroy a human life.

I have a story that is along these lines. I have a friend who has had some "female troubles." The doctor offered a few cures. One being a hysterectomy which she felt was unnecessary. The other being a procedure where they essentially scrape the uterine wall. I'm no doctor and I'm not sure what this procedure does(and I sure didn't ask), but a side effect of it is that it creates an environment unsuitable for a fertilized egg to attach. She chose to live with her troubles.

 

[paddling_man]

kingnerelli -

A sincere thanks for the thoughtful response.

Clarification request: Did she not have the uterine scrape because she wanted to have more children in the future or because, though no desire or plans for more children, she felt it would have been morally wrong to create an inhospitable environment in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. ie., because it would be a form of birth control and she was morally against it.

Thanks

I have a friend who has had some "female troubles." The doctor offered a few cures. One being a hysterectomy which she felt was unnecessary. The other being a procedure where they essentially scrape the uterine wall. I'm no doctor and I'm not sure what this procedure does(and I sure didn't ask), but a side effect of it is that it creates an environment unsuitable for a fertilized egg to attach. She chose to live with her troubles.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Kingnereli, the procedure you describe is commonly known as a D&C. It does nothing permanent to the womb that would cause any difficulty down the road with becoming pregnant.

You seem to be a good guy and it is obvious that you have given these issues some thought. I like to think that I am a good person and have also wrestled with this issue. We have a real difference in opinion as to when life begins and I believe that we will have to agree to disagree.

Bill's comment about the guys who cut and run on a woman was on target. They are male but not men.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Me too.

right.
Do you know how many babies die because abortion is legal? I bet it's more than the number of women in the US that die in childbirth. Sure, making abortion illegal won't save all of the babies, but I bet it would save most of them. My wife's former doctor told her to abort our daughter, Allison. That's why he's her former doctor. Allison is healthy and will be 1 year old next tuesday. My wife had serious health problems during the pregnancy, but she's doing fine now, too. how is it a basic right to end someone else's life? by your "logic," until you've been aborted, you have no right to judge abortion seriously? Are you saying there will be more than a million deaths a year due to outlawing abortion? There are more than a million abortion deaths a year now because abortion is legal.
"Religious writings" and God out of the picture, the little guy in the sonogram, even at 8-10-12 weeks, is still a tiny person with the same makeup as everybody else.

Like I said.....the fetus becomes a baby when it is able to survive outside the womb with or without assistance. I don't see abortion as murder or a death because the fetus has never really lived. I know you and others believe differently but this is how I feel.

It has always seemed to me that the most vociferous advocates on the anti-abortion side are men. I can't say that is a fact just what I have experienced. I really wonder about that sometimes and why it would be that way. All I can do is come at this from a woman's point of view who is pro-choice.

I am happy to hear that your wife and daughter are well.

 

[public servant]

It has always seemed to me that the most vociferous advocates on the anti-abortion side are men.

HUGE

 

[kingnereli]

kingnerelli -

A sincere thanks for the thoughtful response.

Clarification request: Did she not have the uterine scrape because she wanted to have more children in the future or because, though no desire or plans for more children, she felt it would have been morally wrong to create an inhospitable environment in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. ie., because it would be a form of birth control and she was morally against it.

Thanks

She has one daughter. She wasn't even supposed to be able to get pregnant at all. The pregnancy was awful. She was confined to a bed for most of it. The decision was just in case.

Kingnereli, the procedure you describe is commonly known as a D&C. It does nothing permanent to the womb that would cause any difficulty down the road with becoming pregnant.

I only know what I was told. I am no expert. I yield to anyone with more knowledge then me.

 

[Annie Oakley]

I could give you details on the procedure but all you manly men would respond with "yuck"!

 

[public servant]

I could give you details on the procedure but all you manly men would respond with "yuck"!

STOP!!!!

 

[techres]

Bill's comment about the guys who cut and run on a woman was on target. They are male but not men.

As a friend of mine always quoted: "You are what you do when it counts."

 

[paddling_man]

Interesting... I just had a conversation with my wife. I learned something, if she's got her facts straight, that is a bit of a surprise.

She was relatively liberal when we met 16 years ago, right out of Miami Univ. (Ohio.) She used the pill for the first years of our marraige. She says she is now haunted by the little "kids" we created that didn't survive. You see, she says that the pill (the one you take monthly) works fundamentally like the morning after pill. You DO release an egg that is fertilized. Call it a fertilized egg or a child, depending on your beliefs.

Either way, the monthly pill, just like the morning after pill, simply create a uterine wall that is no longer a viable host - ie., it doesn't stick.

If you are strongly pro-life, believe that life starts at conception, and anything causing the intentional termination of that is murder - the tools to that end are not only abortion or morning after pill. The pill, by your definition, is abortion or murder.

 

[cce1302]

paddling_man,

You make some good points and I can only respond with my view on things. I can't equate preventing life with destroying it. Therefore, birth control that prevents fertilization I am ok with. I see no logical or biblical conflict. As far as the morning after pill and other means that prevent implantation of an embryo to the uterine wall are equal to abortion. It is another way to destroy a human life.

Yeah.

It has always seemed to me that the most vociferous advocates on the anti-abortion side are men.

If you think I'm vociferous in my anti-abortion stance, you should really hear what my wife says about abortion. She has no doubt that our three kids (and the miscarriages) were individuals from the very beginning. She loved them from the moment they started making her throw up constantly.