Common OC/CC threadjack

[truckie011]

Time to inject my . Yes ccing does coddle the sheeple. Yes ocing can deter some criminals. Ccing in my opinion is the best option in a urban setting.
When you are in a crowd of people, it is easier to keep control of your weapon.
Regardless of your choice to cc, or oc, you need to keep this in mind. In the vast majority of self defense scenarios away from the home, will be lightning fast at close quarters. So first you need to be able to fend off your attacker long enough to be able to draw your weapon, or keep it from being taken away from you.
And ocing MAY entice an opportunistic punk to make a grab for your weapon. Especially in a crowd.

One last comment, @ ATM. You stated "If CC were such a big tactical advantage, then police and military would CC."
As per the military, ccing is not practical, and is like comparing an apple to an orange. But cops on the other hand, cc all the time, when in plain clothes or during undercover work.

 

[Bapak2ja]

When this armed citizen’s gunfight was over, almost everyone called him a hero. He had mixed feelings about that. He had retired after two honorable careers, the first as a United States Marine Corps aviator who among other duties had flown two US Presidents, and the second as a commercial airline pilot. It has been said when you first enter USMC Recruit Training, you might describe yourself as a man or a woman, or even as a boy or a girl. But when you walk back out through those gates, if asked “what are you?” you will answer proudly, “I am a Marine!”
This one was, most assuredly, A Marine. He has never talked to the press about his experience, until now. He told me, “I believe it was Andy Warhol circa 1971 who is credited with creating the phrase, ‘Everyone gets 15 minutes of fame.’ I have no interest in 15 seconds of notoriety. There is already too much on the Internet as it is.” He requested I not use his name when I told his story. I respect that. Accordingly, I will refer to him here simply as, “the Marine.”​

The Incident​

When you are 71 years old and retired twice over, it’s okay to eat when you’re hungry and sleep when you’re tired. You’ve earned that relaxed schedule. It is shortly after 11:00 PM on the night of June 27, 2007 in Plantation, Florida. The Marine has gone out for an evening stroll and a little light shopping, topped off with a stop at a Subway sandwich shop for a bite to eat.
He has been licensed to carry a concealed weapon in the state of Florida since September of 1990. His years with the USMC have left him comfortable and confident with the 1911 pistol. In a cheap, nameless cloth holster toward the middle of his back lies a concealed subcompact Para-Ordnance LDA Carry pistol, caliber .45 ACP, fully loaded with six rounds in its short-frame magazine and a seventh in its firing chamber. A spare magazine is in a pouch attached to the holster. The double action only pistol is “on-safe.” In his pocket is a tiny backup gun, a five-shot Freedom Arms miniature single action revolver, chambered for .22 Long Rifle and marketed as a “mini-derringer.” The .45 is concealed by an un-tucked shirt.
It is a quiet evening, and the Marine is the last customer in the Subway shop. He rises from the table and strides to the waste disposal area to dump the wrappings of the sandwich he has just finished. He’s in good shape: he doesn’t smoke or drink, and works out daily. And suddenly, he is no longer the only “customer.”
The position he has taken to throw away the wrappings has put his back to the door, and he has not seen the two men enter. When he turns to leave, they are simply there.​

They are identically disguised. They are wearing black bandannas,
pulled up as masks over their faces, and each wears a ball cap pulled down low over the eyes. Each is wearing heavy-framed dark sunglasses. Both of the men are wearing long sleeved garments,
and gloves. And each is holding a weapon.
They announce a stickup. Common sense and military training and experience combine to tell the Marine these men have the upper hand at the moment. Slowly, calmly, he raises his hands high enough for the robbers to believe he is complying. On the other side of the counter, the store manager is complying, too.
The Marine gives up his wallet, with several hundred dollars inside. He
doesn’t think it’s worth killing anyone over, let alone dying for.
But that’s not enough. The robbers order him into the back of the shop, into a rest room.
And that changes everything.​

Drawing The Line​

Every responsible person who carries a gun has given some thought to
how and when they would use it. The Marine is no exception. He has given
up his money, but long beforehand, he has determined he will not be taken
at gunpoint into the back of a robbery​

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premises and proned-out on the floor. He knows that too many times, victims have not gotten up from there.
And now, the nearest robber orders him onto the floor.​

Slowly, the Marine pretends to obey. He turns his right side slightly away, so his torso will block the gunman’s view of his hand. He pretends to bend down,​

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as if to lower himself to the floor.​

And, suddenly, he makes his move.​

The Clock Starts​

The Para-Ordnance clears the holster in a “cavalry draw” and swings
up. In a movement so long practiced he is unaware he is performing it, the
Marine’s thumb wipes the pistol’s safety​

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lever down into the “fire” position as his finger goes to the trigger. The small area erupts into gunfire.​

A robber jerks back away from him. The man has been hit three times, once in the leg and once in the center mass area of the torso and once in the head, and he staggers rearward. His back slams into the wall, his arms dropping. He has not yet fallen, the Marine per​

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ceives this first antagonist is out of the fight, and he turns his attention to the second threat. This one is standing in the narrow hallway outside the bathroom. He is
holding something in each hand, and the Marine fires so fast it’s almost as if both robbers had been caught in the same uninterrupted stream of bullets. The second thug turns, running toward the front door. The Marine realizes there’s a bullet hole in that door now … and the slide on his pistol has locked back empty. The first robber has collapsed.​

He reflexively reaches for the spare​

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magazine, but it has slipped down
inside his jeans. He can’t get hold of it. He has to take a moment to reach
down and unbuckle his belt before he can grasp the second magazine.
As this is happening, he sees the running second man hit the door full tilt, so hard he loses his balance and falls onto the sidewalk. The man has shown no indication of being hit yet.
The Marine reloads now, with a quick and practiced movement once the​

magazine is in hand. By the time the slide comes back forward, chambering
a fresh round, the second armed robber has disappeared.
It’s over.​

Aftermath​

The first armed robbery suspect was identified as Dionicio Arrindell, age 22,​

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of North Lauderdale. He did not survive.
A loaded shotgun was found in the getaway car he and his accomplice had
parked outside. The second was identified as Frederick Gadson, age 21, of Fort Lauderdale. A police manhunt ended when a K-9 found him almost 300 yards from the Subway shop, collapsed near a bank.
He had sustained a gunshot wound to the thorax from the Marine’s weapon, striking some 2" above the heart.
Gadson was charged with armed robbery, and since his accomplice had died during a felony, Gadson was committing, he was also charged with murder. He is still awaiting trial at this writing.
The tone of the criminal justice system’s response to the double shooting​

was set by one of the first responding​

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police supervisors.
“Damn!” he said to the Marine. “You got them both!”​

One police spokesperson described the Marine’s response as “textbook.”​

Another, Detective Robert Rettig, told reporters, “He feared for his life, and if he’s in fear for his life, then he has a right to defend himself, even if it means severe bodily injury or death.”

It was clear to any impartial observer the Marine had righteously acted to
save not only his own life, but that of the store manager as well. The manager’s testimony supported his account of the incident, and so did the Subway’s security video cameras.
No charges were filed against the Marine. To the best of my knowledge​

at this time, no lawsuit has been filed​

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against him either. The general public’s reaction was overwhelmingly positive.
South Floridians are tired of violent crime. It quickly came out the men​

the Marine had shot both had criminal pasts, and only their friends and relatives seemed to have a problem with the outcome, with some telling reporters it was “murder” and they couldn’t believe someone could legally “just shoot down” Arrindell and Gadson. The everpopular phrase, “They were just turning their lives around” was heard repeatedly​

from those quarters.

The Marine did not want publicity. He had done what he’d had to do. He
turned down countless print and elec​

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tronic media requests for interviews.
The article you are reading is the first one in which he has told his own story.​

From Behind The Gun​

It is widely perceived as conventional wisdom among cops and others
that when the criminals herd you from the crime scene itself to a secondary​

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scene, it’s a big red flag indicating an intent to murder the victims/witnesses.
This is exactly what went through the Marine’s mind, and what prompted him to act when he was herded into the rest room, and then ordered to the floor into what is reasonably construable as an
execution position.
There are, said the Marine in his exclusive explanation for Handgunner​

readers, armed robberies occurring regularly in South Florida “where the
robber shoots the victims between 10- and 20-percent of the time even if
they surrender the money — as I did, without resistance.” Adds the Marine, “Whether it be the six ladies in the Lane Bryant store or thousands of other cases across the country, when the robbers have all the money from the customer and the business and they don’t leave,​

but rather take you to the back room and tell you ‘lie down,’ the chances of then being shot are very high.” After stories like this hit the news
media, “chair-borne commandoes” come out of the woodwork to pompously theorize how​

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they could have handled the situation better. Some such critics have suggested that he should have fired once at each opponent before re-engaging either of them. The problem with criticizing someone’s tactics based on a sterile newspaper account, is the account doesn’t give the real-world details that determine what
tactic is appropriate for what scenario.
It appears the Marine couldn’t have shot the second assailant after firing one shot at the first, because that first armed robber was still his primary threat when the Marine fired the second shot, and the second perpetrator was not yet in his line of fire.
The Marine explains, “The first man had staggered back against the wall but hadn’t yet fallen so I could just see over his shoulder the face and shoulders of the second robber. I saw he had something
in each hand. My firing was continuous without pause.”
News accounts never discussed shooting technique. Long familiar
with the 1911, the Marine was able to bring up his Para LDA and fire the​

shots ending the encounter in a smooth and fluid movement born of years of training. He observes, “I carried with the safety on. I have no recollection of​

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releasing the safety. I started firing.”​

He fired one-handed, and scored kill-zone hits with almost half his shots
against two men, neutralizing both. His gun never came up to line of sight. Few of us could criticize that performance.
But the Marine himself can.​

Criticism​

The most valid criticism is often the self-criticism of the individual involved. In this case, we are talking about a man
who spent both his careers with human lives constantly in his hands, in situations where the slightest error on his part could extinguish those lives, as well as his own. It was so when he piloted
Marine One, the Presidential helicopter, for John Fitzgerald Kennedy and for Lyndon Baines Johnson. It was true when he was the pilot responsible for hundreds of passengers at a time aboard Pan American Airways and Delta Airlines jetliners. Such men tend to be perfectionists,
and ruthlessly self-critical.
Here is what he tells us about his own performance that night, as he sees it.
“I am not happy with my accuracy.​

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There was no time to take up a modified Weaver stance or anything close to it. The best way I could describe it is the reaction you have when you walk into a spider web and think the spider is on you. You reflexively brush, urgently or​

even frantically, to get it off,” the retired Marine Major explains.​

Perfect technique, he discovered, is not always possible in a gunfight. He
remembers, “I was firing one handed as​

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I emerged from the bathroom — we’re talking seconds or fractions thereof — the last shots were fired to my right with body facing the opposite hallway wall at about a three-quarters angle.”​

He discovered what a chilling experience it can be to run out of ammunition when you realize half of your armed opponents still appear to be​

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capable of killing you. As his fight-forlife was going on, he was acutely aware armed robbers commonly leave lookouts and getaway car drivers outside, who can move in and serve as reinforcements when gunfire alerts them to the fact the primary armed robbery team has run into resistance. In retrospect, the Marine determined it might be time for a more efficient spare magazine pouch, and to drill more on transitioning to a
backup gun.
He says, “The (second) robber hit the front door so hard he lost his balance and fell onto the sidewalk. He was still only a few feet away and I was VERY CONCERNED when I observed my slide was back. I was afraid he
would fire at me from the sidewalk and/or gang-banger associates would
come around the corner to attack me.
My spare magazine pouch had slipped below my belt line and I had to unbuckle my jeans to get at it.” The emphasis above is his.​

Adds the Marine, “I completely forgot about the stainless steel .22 LR
derringer by Freedom Arms, which was my backup. It’s not much, but an earlier test had shown that the bullet would​

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penetrate three-quarters of a thick Miami phone book.”
Many on the Internet gun boards pored over the fact that while the first​

armed robber was swiftly neutralized by​

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a quick pair of solidly-placed .45 hits, the second had taken a .45 slug through the torso and run a distance reported as almost 300 yards before collapsing.
There was much discussion of whether the .45 ACP cartridge was over-rated, or whether any handgun round was powerful enough to effect a one-shot stop on a dangerous criminal.
The Marine explains, “The second robber was hit in the chest, 2" above the heart. I was using Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket. I didn’t think I had hit him because he didn’t go down. When I learned later he had been hit and where, I was very surprised that an individual who was probably about 5' 10" tall and 170 pounds didn’t go down when hit in
the chest with a .45.”
With the Para Carry LDA still in evidence until the trial of the second
armed robber is over, the Marine is now carrying a single action Para-Ordnance Hawg .45, comforted by its ten-plus-one cartridge capacity.​

Lessons​

Wounded suspect Gadson’s grandmother said of the Marine, when she
talked to reporters, “He shouldn’t have taken the law in his hands.”
Does anyone think that when everything logical screams,​

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you are about to be execution-murdered by criminals, the law should be left in the criminals’ hands?
The criminal justice system knew exactly what was what. That’s why the
police not only did not bring charges after investigating the shooting, but​

clearly​

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endorsed the Marine’s actions. In a world where certain attorneys
chase ambulances and those who love people who do bad things want
revenge for those people’s deaths and injuries, I strongly suspect there were discussions about bringing civil suits.
I also strongly suspect any attorney with an IQ above room temperature
would have realized the chances of winning such a lawsuit against the
Marine, under the circumstances that provably took place, would have been poor indeed.​

Even the most righteous justifiable​

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uses of deadly force — and this incident certainly qualifies as such — will draw criticism. Understand the criticism comes from those with no standing to criticize. If you know in your heart what you did was something you had to do, it will be easier to deal with.
The Marine knows that he did what he had to do. He mentions the Lane Bryant murders, which took place in Chicago in early 2008, well after his own shooting.
A lone gunman herded six women into a back room of a clothing store, ordered them to the floor, and shot them all execution-
style. Only one of his intended victims survived. The mass-murderer is
still at large.
Can anyone doubt if the Marine, or someone like him, had been present
at that Lane Bryant store, the outcome might have been much different — and much better?
The justice system was correct in its conclusion. The Marine did the right
thing. We at American Handgunner salute him — and thank him for sharing
his story, exclusively, with our readers.

Massad Ayoob
Ameican Handgunner
July/August 2009​

OK, I will start carrying extra mags for my concealed EDC. Time to purchase a mag holder and a very good 1.75 belt to go with my Galco Summer Comfort and Blackhawk CQC for my G26. I also need a double mag holder for my Taurus 709 Slim.

Second, I need to start practicing drawing from concealment, target acquisition and firing. I normally just practice hitting the target at the range, so I need to expand my rituals.

Finally, I think I will avoid Subway after dark.

BTW, ya gotta luv the Marines! Clearly, America's finest

 

[ATM]

...One last comment, @ ATM. You stated "If CC were such a big tactical advantage, then police and military would CC."
As per the military, ccing is not practical, and is like comparing an apple to an orange. But cops on the other hand, cc all the time, when in plain clothes or during undercover work.

Wow, first post. Welcome to

Practical and tactical can be apples and oranges; but if the mission dictates getting in close to bad guys undetected, then pretending to be unarmed may just fit the bill.

This, of course, is not my mission. I count on the fact that selecting an armed target over an easier mark just doesn't make sense to the average criminal. In my set of priorities, not being selected ranks higher than blending in with the hopes of "getting the drop" when something goes down.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Concerned Citizen]

The only reason I don't carry an extra mag, is they are hard to find. My ocaisional carry piece is a 1917 WWI "Izarra Ruby" I just got onto GunBroker & purchased a second magazine. I will not single mag carry again.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I see where you are coming from for the most part. From my point of view If I where a criminal and decided to rob a gas station etc. Personally I would attack those who had a visible weapon. Take the visible threats out first right? Most criminals are stupid though and have not had any Military or Law Enforcement training. So if they see someone with a visible weapon they are more than likely not going to attempt the robbery. Unless for some reason they have a death wish. I feel there are times when conceal carry is appropriate. Times when you do not want to masses to know you are carrying.

I carried concealed for a while but got over it. For one, I can access my sidearm quicker when carrying in the open. On top of that it's much more comfortable especially during the summer. If you are going to carry in the open you need to be more vigilant. Not saying someone is going to try and take your sidearm but you always need to be aware. More than anything it's some uninformed or uneducated patron calling the cops on you. If you are carrying legal than you have nothing to be concerned about. You may be harassed but you are standing for our right to carry. If everyone stopped carrying because of some uninformed police officer, well that's is letting them win. A right that is not expressed will eventually be lost.

I say carry the way that is most comfortable for you. If you are asked to leave a store because you carry in the open. Then I say take your business elsewhere. If someone wants to give you beef for exercising your right then they can get a tissue for their issue. As for being a target for carrying in the open. That's why situational awareness is crucial even if your spidy senses are not tingling. Be aware of what's going on around you and you are less likely to get caught off guard. You see people all of the time just walking around with their heads down unaware of anything. It's people like that who make an easy target. It's people like that who an assailant looks to target. Situational awareness is far more important than what you carry and how you carry it. My

 

[truckie011]

Wow, first post. Welcome to

Thanks for posting.

Thanks for the welcome.

I wholly understand your point of view. As someone who has been twice forced to present in an S.D. situation, I can't help but wonder if I where allowed to oc, would I still have had to present?. I often think not.

Now on the other hand. I was in my fathers bar, along with 9 customers and the barmaid. Three hoodlums entered the bar. I knew immediately what was about to go down. In the split second before they all drew there weapons, I chose to hit the silent alarm, and not draw my concealed weapon. In about 3 minutes (seemed more like an hour) it was all over and they were gone, and everyone went home safely..
Now if I were ocing this would have most likely turned out very differently.

So in conclusion, there is no right or wrong answer to this debate. It all comes down to what are the local laws, and what you are most comfortable with. Just be glad that here in Indiana we still have the opportunity to have this debate.

 

[rmabrey]

Are there cliff notes for this thread? So far I guess I should carry an extra mag

 

[ATM]

Are there cliff notes for this thread? So far I guess I should carry an extra mag

No cliff notes. This thread has been everywhere and back.

Riveting reading, though. A real page turner...

 

[BloodEclipse]

A real page turner...

YouTube - Bob Segar - Turn the Page

 

[Spazzmodicus]

I'll be glad to chime in ATM but starting at page 1, it's gonna' take me a minute to catch up on the discussion.

 

[USMC_0311]

I'll be glad to chime in ATM but starting at page 1, it's gonna' take me a minute to catch up on the discussion.

Let me save you some reading

Are you pro OC?

Or

The other kind

 

[lovemachine]

LOL

 

[griffin]

Necro post.

Aren't there still states that allow OC with no permit, but require one to CC?

Yes. Michigan is one. Anyone can OC, but you need a license to CC.

Necro post #2.

In much of the country, OC is illegal

Um, this is incorrect. OC is legal in 44 states. Texas is one of the only six states where it is illegal. You might want to research when it became illegal and why.

 

[blamecharles]

Thanks for the necropost I enjoyed reading a very old thread. Wish I had been here for the arguments. OC still the best option for me unless I'm carrying my gf's pink grip 442 that thing gets hidden.

 

[INyooper]

Necro post.


Yes. Michigan is one. Anyone can OC, but you need a license to CC.

Necro post #2.


Um, this is incorrect. OC is legal in 46 states. Texas is one of the only six states where it is illegal. You might want to research when it became illegal and why.

Don't at least some (maybe most?) of the "legal to OC without a license" states consider possessing a loaded firearm in a vehicle a form of concealment ...so, you, practically, need a license anyway? I don't know the laws for various states, but I remember hearing/reading about this somewhere (yeah, it's on the internet ...it must be true ). If anyone knows about this for certain, enlighten me.

 

[ATM]

Thanks for the necropost I enjoyed reading a very old thread. Wish I had been here for the arguments...

Good times, good times...

 

[griffin]

Don't at least some (maybe most?) of the "legal to OC without a license" states consider possessing a loaded firearm in a vehicle a form of concealment ...so, you, practically, need a license anyway?

I don't know about the quantity as I only research the laws in detail for the states I travel in on vacation, etc.

You are correct that some states are like that. Again, Michigan is one. Carrying in a vehicle is considered CC, thus you need a CPL (concealed pistol license). However, there are a number of people who routinely (and I mean every day) OC without a CPL. This could be for several reasons, including being under 21 years of age. One cannot obtain a CPL in MI unless he or she is 21 (without special circumstances), but you can own a handgun at 18. Many 18-21 year-olds can OC only. When they drive they have to keep their guns in the trunk, then pull them out when they park. And yes, it happens all the time.

People pulling pistols out of their trunks and strapping them on at the mall causes more alarm among the general populace than just being able to carry normally, but no one claimed legislators have more than a room-temperature IQ.

There are other OC occasions, such as loaded long guns, which can not be carried in a vehicle in MI but can be carried openly.

You might be surprised how many people carry openly and don't bother getting a CPL. I was. I am for CPL because it makes carrying easier, but it is not necessary.

In addition, there are some places where you can legally OC where you cannot CC: K-12 schools, churches, large theaters, etc. (although you can CC in church with permission).

 

[protias]

Don't at least some (maybe most?) of the "legal to OC without a license" states consider possessing a loaded firearm in a vehicle a form of concealment ...so, you, practically, need a license anyway? I don't know the laws for various states, but I remember hearing/reading about this somewhere (yeah, it's on the internet ...it must be true ). If anyone knows about this for certain, enlighten me.

I haven't researched a lot of states, but there are a few where you do not need a permit/license to car carry. WI is one state that the car carry restriction, was rescinded on 11/1/11. However, some will say it has to be in plain view. Some LEOs think that a handgun on your hip or on the seat, it is not in plain view, but having drugs on your seat is plain view.

 

[blamecharles]

Good times, good times...

You did seem to be having an extraordinary amount of fun.

 

[kyotekilr]

I cc because I think it is more comfortable. The crossbreed style holster I carry creates enough friction between my leg and itself that I don't feel the tug of an OC.