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  • JettaKnight

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    I have no inherent problem with the "He Gets Us" commercials. No need to seek out offense where none is intended. And there's nothing wrong with the message that to follow Jesus means to wash others' feet - i.e. to be a servant.
    Jesus washing feet is more than just servant leadership (despite what you might read in a leadership book or hear at a seminar).

    Now days the only time you really see foot washing are at some weddings. And it in no way carries the same level of shock. (It's more just weird and gross) There's just no parallel in today's society. It's not the same thing when the pastor shows up on Saturday to help vacuum the sanctuary. There's no shame in that, unlike what Jesus did.

    There's a component of it that we can't really comprehend in our near classless society. It was more than just servicing the needs of the disciples. More than being an exemplary host - it was putting Himself in a position of disdain. Peter's rejection of Jesus washing his feet was partially self-preservation, not his own humility. To be serving under a master that washes feet - it just was intolerable; Peter couldn't accept his master going straight the bottom of the social totem pole. No one will ever accept him or Jesus for such a shameful act.

    In John 13:8 Peter wasn't saying, "No, you shouldn't, I should serve you."
    Look at the words he was, “You shall never wash my feet.” (The original text has no punctuation, but I think an exclamation point is in order here)
    Peter was saying, "You can't! That's not right. That's shameful!"

    Judaism valued humility (unlike the other cultures in that region), but Judaism also valued class structure and societal roles. But Jesus' act wasn't just being humble, it was having no fear of shame whatsoever, even to the point of embracing it in the eyes of those around him.

    This is another case of Jesus flipping the script and doing everything wrong according to the world's view of a leader.


    Contrast this to today's Christian "leaders". Ken Copeland famously said he can't fly commercial because of the "demons" in those [aluminum death tubes]. That's the most egregious, but there's hundreds of other examples.
     
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    JettaKnight

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    Matthew 16:24 is another one of those verses that we can't fully understand in our current context.

    Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

    Oh yeah, the cross? You mean that gold plated one I wear around my neck? The ones all over the churches, or on cars, or your tatoos...

    The scandal, the shame, the gravitas is gone. Now it's a symbol of inclusivity or a fashion trend.

    We've lost the sense what it means - it not just death, but it's a shameful death. A death reserved for the worst of the worst. And it not just the death, but from the moment you pick up that cross and carry to the hill you're mocked and scorned. Each street you travel is lined with the masses yelling at you and spitting upon you. It's the ultimate form of humiliation and impotence.

    We must be weak for Him to be strong. We must be humble for Him to be glorified.
     

    JettaKnight

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    So I don't know what's more impressive about Peter - his zeal for following Jesus, or his selfishness and stupidity.

    John 13:8-9 said:
    Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.” Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”
    He starts by not wanting to be a follower of a loser, but then when he hears there's potential riches at stake, he does just take what's offered, he wants the full share.

    Oh, Peter. :rolleyes:


    There's also an apologetic case to be made - here's writings by His followers showing off just how uncool he is. You just don't see this level of humility in other religious text. Maybe of the practitioners, but never of the deities themselves.
     

    foszoe

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    I'm studying Leviticus, and I'm now on chapter 11. Kosher/dietary laws. What you can, or cannot eat etc.

    If you have some insight on this chapter please share it. I'm finding this interesting.

    I've meet Christians who say this should still be observed, and some say it doesn't.
    I found some websites that teach observance of Jewish dietary laws that discussed Christ teaching in Mt 15:16-20, Peter's vision in Acts 10:9-15.

    Have you come across any that discuss Titus 1:15,16?
     

    ditcherman

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    In the country, hopefully.
    Jesus washing feet is more than just servant leadership (despite what you might read in a leadership book or hear at a seminar).

    Now days the only time you really see foot washing are at some weddings. And it in no way carries the same level of shock. (It's more just weird and gross) There's just no parallel in today's society. It's not the same thing when the pastor shows up on Saturday to help vacuum the sanctuary. There's no shame in that, unlike what Jesus did.

    There's a component of it that we can't really comprehend in our near classless society.
    Isn’t possible that Jesus was trying to break the valuing of class structure in that society?
    It was more than just servicing the needs of the disciples. More than being an exemplary host - it was putting Himself in a position of disdain. Peter's rejection of Jesus washing his feet was partially self-preservation, not his own humility. To be serving under a master that washes feet - it just was intolerable; Peter couldn't accept his master going straight the bottom of the social totem pole. No one will ever accept him or Jesus for such a shameful act.

    In John 13:8 Peter wasn't saying, "No, you shouldn't, I should serve you."
    Look at the words he was, “You shall never wash my feet.” (The original text has no punctuation, but I think an exclamation point is in order here)
    Peter was saying, "You can't! That's not right. That's shameful!"

    Judaism valued humility (unlike the other cultures in that region), but Judaism also valued class structure and societal roles. But Jesus' act wasn't just being humble, it was having no fear of shame whatsoever, even to the point of embracing it in the eyes of those around him.

    This is another case of Jesus flipping the script and doing everything wrong according to the world's view of a leader.


    Contrast this to today's Christian "leaders". Ken Copeland famously said he can't fly commercial because of the "demons" in those [aluminum death tubes]. That's the most egregious, but there's hundreds of other examples.
     

    BRHiker

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    Jesus washing feet is more than just servant leadership (despite what you might read in a leadership book or hear at a seminar).

    Now days the only time you really see foot washing are at some weddings. And it in no way carries the same level of shock. (It's more just weird and gross) There's just no parallel in today's society. It's not the same thing when the pastor shows up on Saturday to help vacuum the sanctuary. There's no shame in that, unlike what Jesus did.

    There's a component of it that we can't really comprehend in our near classless society. It was more than just servicing the needs of the disciples. More than being an exemplary host - it was putting Himself in a position of disdain. Peter's rejection of Jesus washing his feet was partially self-preservation, not his own humility. To be serving under a master that washes feet - it just was intolerable; Peter couldn't accept his master going straight the bottom of the social totem pole. No one will ever accept him or Jesus for such a shameful act.

    In John 13:8 Peter wasn't saying, "No, you shouldn't, I should serve you."
    Look at the words he was, “You shall never wash my feet.” (The original text has no punctuation, but I think an exclamation point is in order here)
    Peter was saying, "You can't! That's not right. That's shameful!"

    Judaism valued humility (unlike the other cultures in that region), but Judaism also valued class structure and societal roles. But Jesus' act wasn't just being humble, it was having no fear of shame whatsoever, even to the point of embracing it in the eyes of those around him.

    This is another case of Jesus flipping the script and doing everything wrong according to the world's view of a leader.


    Contrast this to today's Christian "leaders". Ken Copeland famously said he can't fly commercial because of the "demons" in those [aluminum death tubes]. That's the most egregious, but there's hundreds of other examples.
    Jesus lived without an ego. He repeatedly said he came not to do his own will, but the will of his father. That is exactly how we are supposed to live. The modern church unfortunately has this backwards, where everything is about one's self.

    There is a famous sermon from a number of years ago called Ten Shekels and a Shirt by Paris Reidhead talking about how humanism has infiltrated the American church, and it is just as relevant today as it was then. Here is an excerpt from it:


    It is God's will that we die to self and be born again, where we no longer live to do our own will, but the will of our father in heaven.

    Luke 14

    27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
    ...
    33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
     

    45sRfun

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    Matthew 16:24 is another one of those verses that we can't fully understand in our current context.



    Oh yeah, the cross? You mean that gold plated one I wear around my neck? The ones all over the churches, or on cars, or your tatoos...

    The scandal, the shame, the gravitas is gone. Now it's a symbol of inclusivity or a fashion trend.

    We've lost the sense what it means - it not just death, but it's a shameful death. A death reserved for the worst of the worst. And it not just the death, but from the moment you pick up that cross and carry to the hill you're mocked and scorned. Each street you travel is lined with the masses yelling at you and spitting upon you. It's the ultimate form of humiliation and impotence.

    We must be weak for Him to be strong. We must be humble for Him to be glorified.
    We have been largely free of persecution in America until now. There are some J6ers who are already under that cross of persecution, and if the commie takeover continues much past Nov 2024 I dare say that all Christians will face persecution in this country.
     

    45sRfun

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    I was referring to JK’s post both there and later on in his post, where he explicitly wrote that “Judaism valued class structure”; I believe it was a way of thinking for them to make order out of things but also to control things, from the top down.
    Thanks. I think the Book of the Prophet Amos is very much about this class structure and the controlling class abusing those under them.
     

    JettaKnight

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    We have been largely free of persecution in America until now. There are some J6ers who are already under that cross of persecution, and if the commie takeover continues much past Nov 2024 I dare say that all Christians will face persecution in this country.
    I didn't mention politics or government for a reason. It's divisive.



    It took me all day to figure out what you meant by "J6ers". And now that I do know...
    Sorry, but I simply must respond. Do forgive me all.



    This notion that we're being persecuted in America is at the least laughable, and at the worst insulting to those around the world dying for being a Christian.

    What freedom do we have? Oh, let me count the ways (in no particular order).
    • They don't call Fort Wayne, "the city of churches" for just historical reasons
    • Politician open flaunt their Christianity
    • We have Christian organizations meeting in classrooms on secular public campuses
    • We have tax breaks for Christian organization and donors
    • I can't swing a dead cat without it falling into a cub with Bible in my gigantic cube farm I call work
    • "The Chosen", a highly popular TV show, is about Christ
    • Christian radio
    • Christian TV networks
    • Christian flags
    • Christian marches
    • Christian displays
    • Christian websites
    • Christian podcast
    • Christian conferences
    • Christian prayer breakfast for politicians
    The list can go on and on. I'm sure you can cite some abnormal anecdotes, but for the most part Christians enjoy more freedom in America than nearly any other place or time. I can celebrate the birth of Christ - something you couldn't do in Puritan America of the past.


    As to January 6th - that was purely political. Let's not conflate it with Christianity. Whether some tried to hide it under the guise of Christianity or not, it was a political action; pure and simple. There's no Biblical mandate telling me protest and storm the Capitol because my favorite politician didn't get elected. In fact, it can pretty easily be argued against it.
     

    JettaKnight

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    There's some times I would think persecution would be better... At least I couldn't focus on my own selfish desires.

    When it comes to be a Christian, I'm my own worst enemy.
     

    foszoe

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    In general, I see more intolerance from one Christian (group) towards another Christian (group) than I do from government to Christians.

    Yes it's anecdotal.
     

    foszoe

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    There's some times I would think persecution would be better... At least I couldn't focus on my own selfish desires.

    When it comes to be a Christian, I'm my own worst enemy.
    The Tree of Liberty is often refreshed with the blood of martyrs.
     

    JettaKnight

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    The Tree of Liberty is often refreshed with the blood of martyrs.
    Not exactly sure how that applies to my statement:

    There's some times I would think persecution would be better... At least I couldn't focus on my own selfish desires.

    When it comes to be a Christian, I'm my own worst enemy.


    Don't get me wrong - I love liberty. But I just have not found a Biblical case where God intends that for me. Does it make me a better Christian? I just don't know.

    Does it make it easier for me to spread the Gospel? I think that's a definitive benefit there.
    Liberty should be a means to and end, not the other way around. My primary focus should be on maintaining my Christian distinctives, not maintaining my liberty. I can be Christian without liberty - Paul clearly exhibited that fact.

    Should we be active in politics to maintain our liberty? I would say most certainly (with that caveat that we so legally).
    Should that be our main focus? No, that's where it becomes selfish.

    I certainly think we can strive for both liberty and Christianity, but I should never forgo my Christian values in the struggle for liberty.

    I've heard several modern Christian political folks say that the teachings of Jesus - that whole Beatitudes and turning the other cheek - it just doesn't work that way and we need to play by their rules... That's clearly sacrificing the Christian distinction in order to maintain liberty and gather power. I want none of that.



    A church that preaches about liberty and politics and freedom is no different than a church that preaches about health and wealth and happiness - it's just a twist on prosperity gospel.
     
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